#23: Navigating In-Person Brand Activations with Dragon Spirits Marketing

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Alison Smith:

Welcome to the Umai Social Circle, where we talk consumer goods tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Alison and Karin, co-founders of Umai Marketing, and we’re being joined today by Lamar Romero. He’s CEO, executive dragon from Dragon Spirits Marketing. Dragon Spirits is the number one brand ambassador gig marketplace, that helps match growing brands with passionate brand ambassadors for activations across the US. Welcome, Lamar.

Lamar Romero:

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Alison Smith:

We’re glad to have you. So, let’s get right into it. We’re curious, how did Dragon Spirits… First of all, we love the name and we love the background. We like how you just own it, so tell us more how Dragon Spirits came to be.

Lamar Romero:

Sure. Yeah, my wife and I actually started in the tequila industry. I came out of high tech, and one day my wife came to me and she said, “Hey, think about helping this tequilero. He needs help with his tequila, and we should do this.” And I was like, “Great. I’ve got some 401k left to sacrifice. Let’s go and do that.” And so we helped push a tequila in Texas for a whole year, back in 2012, and figured out we really like the industry and there was a lot of things we wanted to change. So, Dragon Spirits became a thing because while we were doing that, I’d see a lot of promotion going on that was typically by model types that are in their early twenties, and unfortunately didn’t know a lot about the brands that they were pushing.

Lamar Romero:

And so, I mistakenly or unmistakenly looked at my wife one day and I said, “If I work in this industry, I’m going to change everything. I’m going to teach these people how to sell. I’m going to train them, and educate them, and make sure they can go out there and do a great job.” And for better or for worse, that’s what we did. And we chose the name Dragon Spirits because we wanted to be different. We didn’t want to be model company this, or model company that. We wanted to basically… We were the first in 2013, to my knowledge, to change the paradigm. We didn’t hire people based on looks at all, we’re one of the only companies at the time that didn’t have body measurements on their website application. We just said, “Hey, if you have a great personality and you want to promote, you can come be a dragon.” And that’s how it took off.

Karin Samelson:

What an old school crazy approach, that happened for so long, even in CPG, at trade shows and things like that. And you just never really… Have you ever stopped to actually think about what’s happening, models being hired because they look good?

Lamar Romero:

It’s still a thing. And I’ll tell you, when I was just beginning, we had businesses that literally wouldn’t hire us because they’re like, “No, we’ve seen your people in the field.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but that person I just hired who’s not a model looking gal, just sold 20 units of that thing, while that other gal who was right next to her sold two.” And so, that just became our thing. And then now you fast forward to 2021, now look, models are still a big part of the industry. And I have nothing personal with a model or somebody who’s attractive, if you can be attractive and go out and sell great, then you’re a triple threat, and you’ve got a great personality. And so, we welcome folks from all walks of life. Some of my best dragons have been retired 70 year old people, that go out and just do a great job. So yeah, but I’m with you there. It is an old school industry, and it still is, but it is shifting just because everything’s shifting. We all have to, we all have to change.

Alison Smith:

I’m really glad you noticed that, and decided to make a change with the brand that you started. And just thinking about that, it’s like, I am much more likely to approach a 70 year old woman or man who wants to give snacks or liquor, than like a super hot person. That is much more relatable.

Lamar Romero:

It is, and that approachability is important. I had a small liquor owner tell me that at a trade show. He was like, “You know what I like about your folks? Is that I feel comfortable, because the mom who’s shopping with her kid can be approached and have a conversation, and not feel like,” like exactly what you just said.

Karin Samelson:

Awesome. Well, so let’s just talk about the current state of brand activations in person, especially with how crazy the past couple years have been, and how it kind of looks like it’s going to be shaping out to be in the future. So tell us more about this, and what you see happening in 2022 with this shift.

Lamar Romero:

Yeah, absolutely. First, let’s define brand activation. Brand activation is a tasting, or a trade show, or festival or a street team. It’s basically activating your brand where crowds get together. And regardless of what’s going on with COVID, or any other social shifts that we’re seeing with technology, people still like to get together. So, we feel like this type of brand activation is going to continue, and now it’s going to be offset or added with other strategies, such as social media marketing and advertising as well.

Lamar Romero:

But the brand activation industry is definitely going to a place where, especially for small and medium businesses, it needs to be affordable, and it needs to be available. And I’m seeing a lot of small businesses really like what we’re doing. In other words, being out there, even if you can only afford a couple of activations a month. To be at that clutch store, or that clutch festival, and have some help have, some hands there that know your brand, can do the heavy lifting while maybe you’re off meeting with the store owner who might be present at that particular festival or activation, is absolutely critical. And so, part of what we’re trying to do is set up a system to where small businesses can utilize our technology without having to spend a lot of money every month.

Alison Smith:

That’s cool. And you mentioned how brands, this goes beyond just having an in person activation, what data are you collecting and using, that brands can use across all platforms, and digital marketing and everything else?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. When we go back and talk about what an old school industry, I can remember one of my competitors back in 2016, was literally having their brand ambassadors fill out a piece of paper, take a picture of it, and submit the at as a report. Like, what are you going to be able to do with that data? While we were exporting everything to a spreadsheet, and giving nice rows, and columns and tables, that was considered, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe you actually do that.” Now, as we go forward in 2021, it’s all about data visualization. And so, we’re doing a WeFund right now, we’re raising a million dollars so that we can take our homegrown software application, the Dragon Engagement Network, or the dragons’ den, where the dragons live, and we’re trying to reshape it to where we can give true data visualization to our customers. So that if you had 10 reports done in the state of Texas, and they were at all different cities, you could be able to say, “What was my spend in Houston, versus Austin? How many units did I sell SKU, versus that SKU?”

Lamar Romero:

If you’re a national company, you’re a big company, that’s doing hundreds of activations a month, what is it looking like per region? What is it looking like per store? What is it looking like when I went to that festival? Where did my follow through come after that festival? And so, that kind of data is what we’re providing, I would say, in a light way, and hoping we’re going to be providing that in a heavy way as we go forward in 2022 and 2023, when we add some of these features to our software solution.

Alison Smith:

That’s pretty cool. And I imagine just collecting a ton of in person, real qualitative data along the way, helps people define their core customer and all that.

Lamar Romero:

Absolutely. Capturing maybe some demographics that you’re seeing, capturing how many people you saw, how many units you moved, those are the basic metrics that we’re looking at. But also, even when we get to the nitty gritty details, like what were some of the comments about my product? I remember one time we had a client that we simply, after reading all the reports we’re like, “I don’t think I can help you. I don’t think this is working.” And a lot of the comments would come back that it just didn’t taste right, didn’t have the right feel. And I tried to communicate that as honestly as I could, because I never want to be in a place where we’re not providing value. We agreed to walk away, but those were good comments. That is what you want brand activation, whether it’s good or bad, you want to hear whatever data that’s being provided, so that you can go out and do a better job. And so for better or for worse, that’s the kind of data that we collect when we do these brand activations.

Alison Smith:

Yeah. It’s easy to forget, but it’s does need to appeal in some way to some sort of people. So that is extremely important, and just on the digital marketing side, we need that sort of data as well. We’re looking through Amazon comments and social media comments, to try to really understand the customer, and their pain points, and what they are like, and what they’re interested in. So, it’s really cool that you’re collecting that kind of data.

Lamar Romero:

Thank you.

Karin Samelson:

Yeah. A big question I have, and I think that some people that are listening may have is, wait, how do you set these folks up for success? What does training look like for your dragons?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. We got to remember that we’re part of the gig economy. And so, this was the gig economy before it was cool. When models were doing this in the eighties and nineties, nobody called it that. They’re like, “Yeah, I got a modeling gig.” But this is a core part of the gig economy. So one, we’re trying to get gig workers out there to realize that they could do this. If you have a personality, and you want to make 25 to $30 an hour being in one place for three to four hours, not putting wear and tear on your car, and telling the story of a brand and exciting people, then this is the job for you. But now when we find those folks, that’s the secret sauce around how at least we do it.

Lamar Romero:

We actually have a culture test that a dragon must pass in order to even be interviewed in the system. So, half the dragons that apply don’t even take it. Of that half, about 70% of them pass it with an 85 or greater. Once we get that core brand ambassador, and they do the interview, the interview process is more like, “Wow, you’re going to educate me? You’re going to teach me these brands? The other seven firms I worked for didn’t. They didn’t give a damn, they just gave me a sheet.” And so, they get a quick expectation that man, you’re going to be taking a lot of tests here. Because we can’t train gig workers, but we can educate them. And so, then we have over a hundred courses set in our own learning management system within our software. So for instance, there’s a beer course. How do I be deadly just knowing what beer is, and how it’s made, wine, scotch, bourbon?

Lamar Romero:

But then it goes to brand-centric, now you got to pass this achievement, and get this badge on your profile for, like 50 Cent for his Branson brand that we represent. I personally made that achievement for 50’s team, because 50 Cent wasn’t going to make a branding video for nine or 10 minutes to do this. But we wanted to make sure that we went out and represented him well, to really hit the core things that he wanted to talk about. Like, “This is a luxury brand. This is a brand for people who are celebrating life.” And so, to get those essences to a brand ambassador, you have to have a good, repeatable, scalable solution to do so, and that’s what we do with our Dragon Achievement System, to basically educate these dragons so they can go out, and they can promote and really tell the story, and not just say, “Hey, I’ve got a sample of this thing.”

Karin Samelson:

That’s so cool. I mean, at 25 to $30 an hour, take some tests, and get your expertise up and go kill it. If you’re an extrovert, you’re good at talking to people, you can absolutely do this. So, do you only do this for spirits brands? Or have you ever done it for just like food and beverage?

Lamar Romero:

Oh, absolutely. We do this for beer, wine, liquor and food CPG brands. We’ve had some good success with selling cassava flour pretzels. Once the COVID relinquishes itself a little bit and grocery opens up more, we’re going to be doing tastings around a pickle salsa. So, CPG is something that I’m really wanting to attack more. Even though there’s spirits in the brand, and that’s how we started, we’re Dragon Spirits, but we’re the spirit of a dragon. And so, we want to go out and really promote any type of small and medium sized business that’s growing, to do this all across America. And right now we’re in… We went from three states in 2020, to a little over 30 this year. And that’s how we’ve expanded our footprint so quickly. And I’d say we have our toes in a lot of these other states, but we do have like five or six states that we’re core in right here in the United States so far, while we’re still bootstrapping.

Alison Smith:

Fast growth. Well, unfortunately I have to ask it: You’d brought up COVID, and I am so interested to hear what happened when COVID happened? It’s still happening, obviously. How did that change the trajectory of your business, and people who rely on activations?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. Well when 2019 ended, I can remember doing a champagne toast to my wife and having a tear in my eye. Because we had been building our business for seven years, and we finally felt like we were going to make it, like 2020 was going to be our year. In March of 2020, we canceled every activation in the system, we waived all fees, and we sat on our hands for six months as we waited to see what was going to happen. I have to say that government assistance was hugely important to us. I furloughed everybody except for myself and my financial person, and they all got paid well enough to be furloughed, and to take care of their families during this time.

Lamar Romero:

But I found that coming out of COVID, was a lot of pent up demand. So at the end of 2020 Q4, we went from no revenue to instantly profitable in Q4 2020. Because when the floodgates started opening, brand activation was huge. And then finally karma happened for our company, in terms of our achievement system, because I had made an achievement based on the COVID, that you had to wear your mask, and you had to pass our test, and you had to watch our video and understand you need to go out there with gloves and a mask, and you weren’t going to argue with nobody, and you were going to go do it, and you’re going to be good at it, and you’re going to get an extra $5 in pay for doing it. And that really worked, because then all of a sudden we had stores going, “Hey, go hire those dragon guys. They know what they’re doing. They’re the only ones showing up completely COVID ready.” And so, we got a lot of business coming into Q4 2020.

Lamar Romero:

So when I look back at it, [crosstalk 00:17:14] yeah, and then government money too, with PPP loans that were forgivable. So when I look back at it, I think I actually might look back at COVID and go, well, that might have been a real turning point for our business for the better. We’re not out of the weed yet, so I can’t go back and look at it like that yet. But we learned to adapt. And just I’ll always keep saying, digital’s extremely important, but people aren’t going to stop congregating in groups, we’re human beings. So this type of brand activation’s always going to be important. It’s going to change, and it’s going to alter itself. But getting in front of a group of people and going, “I’ve got this wonderful thing, and you need to try it,” is still going to appeal to folks as we continue in this post COVID world.

Alison Smith:

That’s really cool to hear, that you guys were prepared and keeping it safe, and it sounds like you did it right. I am curious though, do you talk to your brands openly about this? And what’s the backup plan that brands should have in their back pocket, if things are to shut down, if or when things are to shut down again?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. I always tell my brands that brand activation strategy is just one part of your marketing strategy. When I see a brand’s just doing that, I actually try to have a talk with them of like, I can have an honest conversation, say, “Hey, you might need to back up some of these efforts with some social media.” Maybe drive people to our brand activations, whether it’s a festival or a trade show, or a tasting or a demo. Because you have to have a full, round strategy, and we can only control what we can control. So, as Omicron is the new scare, and we’ve already seen our Northern markets start to shut down, New York is shutting down right now. What we do, is because we already have a very friendly business way of doing things, we don’t have any contracts. We’re of the only companies that I know that do this, that don’t have contracts, so you can come and go as you please.

Lamar Romero:

So, if somebody’s got 20 activations in the system, that are going to be fulfilled for the rest of the month, and COVID shuts it down, usually there’s cancellation fees if you pull something out. But we’re like, “Hey, we’ll waive all cancellation fees. It’s not in your control.” And so, we just try to do the right thing, and hopefully that brand’s got some other marketing strategy, because now that brand activation part of it is being shut down. And that can really hurt a growing brand, especially if you’ve just got an A to B, and you’re like, “Man, I’ve got to really show some movement in my product,” and they killed one of your main marketing engines, which is, “I have to get this liquid to lips, or this food to mouth, because everybody’s going to be amazed by it, and now I can’t do that.” Find some other great folks that you can consult with, that can help you in your or other marketing. I know two other individuals I could think of on this line, that could help with doing that type of marketing. Because for right now, brand activation ain’t part of it.

Karin Samelson:

Wow. We love that omnichannel approach, you got to be hitting people from all sides.

Lamar Romero:

Absolutely.

Karin Samelson:

For brands that aren’t in retail yet, what are some amazing other places that they can have brand activations?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. We just did a great brand activation for a client of ours, at Startup CPG, which was basically out in front of about a hundred to 150 folks in Austin, right at Ellis Bar. Brand activation can happen anywhere, and we actually encourage brand owners, especially just starting out, you need to go do it yourself. First of all, you’re the founder, or you’re the founding group of people, and you’re going to sell better than even a trained brand ambassador could. For the most part, we do have some brand ambassadors that can run circles around everybody including me. But for the most part, a founder’s going to do better. And then go and feel that pain, and then when you start getting to a place where you can’t be at five places at once, that’s when you’re going to call us.

Lamar Romero:

But you have to be at house parties, or farmer’s markets, or anywhere you can, where you can get in front of a group to start showing off that brand. Because you never know what’s who’s going to be at that party. I actually remember doing a brand activation, I used to do event parties. And so, I did a brand activation at some wealthy folks’ house, and one of the folks in there was a person that worked at HEB. Came up to me and said, “Hey, what do you know about this? I’m in love with this.” And I said, “Hey, I can put you in touch with the person who makes this.” And then a few months later, that product made it into HEB. So you just never know, so you got to go out there and you got to get in front of groups, however and whenever you can.

Karin Samelson:

The power of networking. It’s super intimidating to be an introverted person, somebody who really is uncomfortable talking to others, and getting out there and doing it. So, what would be some of your best advice for founders who are nervous to really sing their own praises, and to really sell?

Lamar Romero:

Wow, that’s a good one. We all have our talents and our strengths. I’ve actually seen introverted dragons over the years do very well. You don’t always have to be the loud, boisterous one to have a good conversation, or to attract attention. But in some of those cases it might help, if an introvert founder really had a hard time being out in front of a crowd and doing that, then you’ve got to hire help. That needs to be a part of your team strategy, you need that cheerleader on your team. Unless your product’s just that damn good, and it gets in the right mouth, and the whole world’s buying it. Whether they’re buying it on a D to C strategy, or for a retail store.

Lamar Romero:

But for the most part, every brand needs a lot of promotion in order for folks to know. I even know that from my own business. We’ve grown from word of mouth the last seven years, but one of the first things brands say when they find my company, they go, “Where the heck have you guys been hiding? And why haven’t I heard about you before now?” And I’m like, “I know, I’m a marketing company, and I suck at marketing my company. Because I’m marketing 200 other clients.” And that’s something I’m aiming to fix. I had to hear that 15 times before I was like, all right, I’m going to go to WeFund and raise a million dollars so I could stop bootstrapping.

Lamar Romero:

Because it’s all about getting out there and having good presence, and especially right now having a great digital presence. And having a good digital strategy, it really, really does help. And I’m talking to a lot of entrepreneurs that are taking a more D to C approach, and that’s really interesting to me. Because it can work and it can’t work, and it just really depends on how you’re going to do that, and do you have the right people or the right talent to do it? But it’s something that I’m definitely seeing more and more.

Alison Smith:

Yeah. So before this call, you said something really interesting. You told us that there’s trends in activations, and you were telling us that in the beginning of the year, you see health brands who run activations have the best results. Which at first we were like, hmm, and it makes perfect sense. Everyone’s got their body goals, their health goals, all those things. So what other interesting trends do you see throughout the year, in terms of activations with brands?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. Well, I would say that you need to be activating, especially brand activation, if you’re a seasonal business, pick that season and go and do it. If you have to spend 50% of your marketing budget on the three months, or that quarter that’s good for you, then go and do it. For spirits, that’s OND, that’s what they call it. OND, October, November, December, Q4. 50% of all the beer, wine and liquor that’s bought in America is bought in OND. And so, that’s a great time to go out and promote.

Lamar Romero:

But in January when everybody’s got a hangover, if you’ve got a health brand and you’re not promoting, what the heck’s the matter with you? I don’t care if you need to be on the street yelling at the top of your lungs, if you’ve got something that’s non-alcohol or it’s healthy, January and February is your time. Because that’s when minds are open. And they’re like, “Oh yeah, I’m hungover from the last three months, man. I really need to make a change.” Whether that’s a protein product, or a healthy energy drink or whatever the case be, I don’t see a lot of brand activation from health brands in Q1, and I always wonder why. So, you really need to understand that trend and follow that. And I hope that answers that question.

Alison Smith:

Yeah, it does. It’s very interesting, and just to be clear, I was just thinking about the last thing you said about brands only going D2C. That’s like you said, it’s totally fine if that’s the route you want to take, but activations aren’t just for pushing retail traffic, activations are for brand awareness, like Karin was saying, word of mouth. They’re extremely important, whichever avenue that you’re working towards.

Lamar Romero:

If I was D to C, I’d be at a trade show festival with my, with my QR code on my paper going, “If you scan this and you go to my website, you get 25% off today.” That’s how you would drive that D to C behavior, but you still need the brand activation to do that. And so, but you’re absolutely right. It doesn’t have to just be retail, though that’s typically what we think about that.

Alison Smith:

Yeah. And I would love to hear more. So, when I think activations, I think in groceries or festivals. What other places are you seeing good results come through? Can you get really niched down, I guess, depending on your brand?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah, you can. It really just depends on what you’re promoting, and what your strategy is, and have you identified your audience? So if you haven’t identified your target audience yet, that might take some time or some consultation, but find with that is and stick your brand activation strategy around that. For instance, I had a really great client called BeatBox Beverages. And in the beginning, they had this five gallon bag of wine. And they hired us for brand activation at HEB stores, and that was tough. You’re in the fine wine section going, “You want to try my five gallon flavored bag of wine?” And even at the HEB store, people were like, “This is crazy. What are you people in here for?”

Lamar Romero:

But that worked. We had a lot of orders, we did a lot of it. And then they went to Shark Tank, got a million dollars from Mark Cuban. And Mark Cuban was like, “We’re not doing that anymore,” which sucked for me, but it was great for the brand. Because they were like, “We’re going to go to college campuses. And I’m going to get you on planes, you’re going to fly to different fraternity, sorority houses.” And that was the right strategy for them, at that time of their life where they were. And so, sure, that wasn’t good for me, but it was great for the brand. And so, you have to understand that audience, and make sure you’re doing those brand activations the right way.

Lamar Romero:

But it doesn’t have to be… First of all, I’ll say this, I’ll give you all some free advice: don’t ever give your product away for free without sending a representative. So when somebody says, “Hey man, give me three cases of your stuff for my party, I’ll talk about you.” You say, “Yeah, but I’m going to send either myself, or my co-founder, or somebody from my company, or a dragon, or whatever, who’s going to go and talk about that product for at least five or 10 minutes.” Because that’s the cost of the free. And where can I buy it, where can I get it? I see that happen all the time, where products are just given away for free without any strategy alongside of it to do it.

Lamar Romero:

So, it can be a party, it can be a festival, it can be a trade show, it can be a street team. It can be just about anything you can imagine, and put some organization into, but it’s an important part of, especially any kind of retail brand, CPG brand, because there’s a lot out there. If you haven’t noticed, there’s a new product being developed in America every two minutes, that’s an actual fact. So, now that you made it to of the shelves of HEB or Spec’s, you’re like, “Great, I made it here.” But yeah, there’s a hundred other vodkas now. So, are you going to differentiate your vodka from the other hundred? So you have to be cognizant of that, and know that half the battle’s getting on the shelf, the other half of the battle is depleting it, and putting it in the hands of consumers, and their minds, souls, so they’ll go out and tell their friends and family. And that’s the basics of a just good marketing strategy.

Karin Samelson:

I love that advice, to never give away free product without having someone there to talk about the product. Because we see that a lot, it’s like somebody reaches out, you can afford it, you want to get your product into all these people’s hands, but what happens, what comes from it? And usually not much. So, I love that piece of advice to send someone there, because the optimization of that is probably like tenfold. That’s super exciting. In terms of timelines, like if somebody wanted to work with a dragon, what does that look like?

Lamar Romero:

Yeah. We generally make sure that, one, we have a consultation call to go over what fee structures look like, how much they cost, all that type of deal. But the most basic thing that it still behooves me today, is that I say, “Well, I need a product marketing presentation.” We internally call it a PMP. And they’re like, “What’s that?” I’m like, “Well, it’s about a two to six page document that we can have at the brand activation, so we can show pictures, maybe show where it’s made, or the founder’s picture.” That can either be in a flip-board, or it can be on a tablet that I scroll. But it, instead of having handouts that are very expensive, point of sale is so expensive. You can have it, but it’s expensive.

Lamar Romero:

But instead of having that, we require our dragons to have a PMP. And that’s the thing that usually slows us down the most, I’m like, “Hey, I need your PMP,” and it will take the company a week or two to get it to us. But that’s it. Other than that, if we’re activating at a location, we need a week’s notice, sign a CLA, put a credit card on file. But basically make sure that we understand how we’re going to communicate that story, so that we can go on and do that great job for you.

Lamar Romero:

Because we called it the dragon engagement model, but there’s a hook, there’s a story, and there’s a close to everything. So the hook might be, “I want you to try 50 Cent’s cognac. He had every hand in making this. It’s delicious, it’s way better than Remy. Give it a try.” That’s the hook. Then I’ll tell you the story about how, “50 Cent made it. Here’s his picture. Yeah, he was a rapper from the nineties, it’s really cool.” And then the emotional close might look something like, “I’m so glad you like it. I’d be honored if you take a bottle home, share it with your friends and family, this is how we get our word out.” So, those three need to be a part of your brand activation strategy. Whether you’re doing that yourself, or you’re hiring us to do it, but make sure you’re putting that in there. Because it’s all about putting that product in the heart and mind of people, so they’ll take it home.

Karin Samelson:

Yeah. I mean, step one, two, three, closing deals. I like that. When it comes to training the dragons to know who the customer is, to really understand the customer avatar of the brand, is that part of the process? Is that something that the brand owner should really, really understand and be able to communicate to you?

Lamar Romero:

That depends on the type of brand activation. Because at a retail store for a tasting or a demo, we don’t want to discriminate against anybody. But it is good to know in the back of your mind that this is a product for 25 to 39 year olds. And so if you see somebody that fits that demographic coming, you’re probably a little bit more amped to go, “Hey, hey, hey, you need to come try this.” That education is definitely communicated towards our dragons. But that is something that when it comes to general brand activation, you never know. A lot of times, I’ve done over probably 700, 800 tastings at this point, myself personally. And I’m still surprised when I give a sample to that one person. I’m like, this person ain’t buying nothing, and they’re like, “Oh, I’ll take a case of that.” I’m like, “What?” You just never know. And so, when you’re doing a brand activation, try to not exclude anyone. But obviously if you know what your demographic is, you try to go after them a little bit harder too.

Karin Samelson:

Oh, that’s great advice. Yeah, because in digital marketing, there are so many people to speak to, we have to narrow it down. That’s so true, in person you have no idea. And if they can taste it, if they can walk away with it right then and there, anybody’s fair game.

Lamar Romero:

And I’m glad you said that, Karin, because that is the time to dial in your marketing, with digital marketing. And when you want to attack your demographic, that’s when you should do it, is in your digital marketing strategy. But don’t do it in your brand activation strategy, because you never know. And BeatBox actually had a great following with folks that was way out of their demographic, I’m talking about old people like me, because of the activations we were doing at HEB. And for a while there, they had a social media following which was surprising. Now they’re a grown up company and they’re in little Tetra packs, they’re not sold in five gallon bags anymore, I am their audience. And so, it’s just things like that evolve as the company evolves. Sometimes you start out with a 25 demographic, and now you’re at the 35… I know I’m only using age here, but it’s important to understand that. And digital marketing-wise, go after your demographic, but in brand activation don’t exclude anyone.

Alison Smith:

Yeah. That was apparent, I had a little chuckle about you, imagining someone explaining who 50 Cent is to just some older person who just has no idea. But if you can get that story across, then it’s pretty cool.

Lamar Romero:

Sometimes they’re just like, “He’s a what?” “Never mind, sir, this is a great cognac, you want to try it?”

Alison Smith:

He makes Cognac.

Lamar Romero:

It’s just sometimes you have to find that little thing right then and there, that works. So yeah, definitely.

Alison Smith:

It’s all about pivoting. That’s cool.

Lamar Romero:

Yes, ma’am

Alison Smith:

All right. Well, you gave a couple of tips. If any, you talked about smaller brands getting the founders out there. What are some other tips for those small brands who aren’t maybe ready to hire Dragon Spirits, who want to get out there and run some activations themselves? What are maybe three tips?

Lamar Romero:

If you’re just getting started, one, get with as many friends and family as you can, do parties with AB testing, and make your friends fill out your survey, or they don’t get the free product. And what I mean by that is, maybe you have a new coffee drink. Invite 50 people over and tell them, “This is the reason for it, I’m going to do mine in one cup, and another. And you’re going to fill out a survey at the end, and that’s the cost of the party.” That way you can start knowing right away. Tito changed his vodka formula like 50 times or something, before he found the right formula back in the late nineties. So, that would be one.

Lamar Romero:

Another one would be, do the brand activation yourself, and I think we kind of covered that. And three, start your social media presence early. If you don’t know how to do that, get with folks that do, and experts. Don’t spend a lot of money at first, don’t be running ads in the beginning, just get it set up right. Your website, how it looks, and how your Facebook feels, and do some organic posts until you kind of have it dialed in, before you can start really spending that money and spending that social. Because all of it is a part of the overall strategy, because it’s a loud world out there. I always think of Twitter, and when I think of Twitter, I think of people just yelling at the top of their lungs. And that one million follower guy, he’s louder than everybody else, right? But you’ve got to navigate that noise with a joint marketing strategy, and find your fans, find your lovers, and build that relationship.

Lamar Romero:

And then I’d say, if you want to raise money, once you have that audience, do a WeFunder, man, because now you turn your customers into investors, and it’s ching, ching, ching all the way. Because once they put money into your company, then they’re going to push you even farther. And now they’re not going to have 50 beers at their next party, they’re only going to have your beer. Because they’re an owner, dammit, and they want to show all their friends. And so, you build brand evangelists. But that’s the next stage, that’s for part two.

Karin Samelson:

That’s awesome, Lamar. Well on that note, great advice. Is there anything you would like to leave the audience with? A link, final statement?

Lamar Romero:

Sure. I will take this moment to say we are doing our own WeFunder. If you like our strategy and how we think, check it out. Wefunder.com/dragonspiritsmarketing. We are at current, at this time, 220 K into a one million dollar raise. And then I’d also say, I don’t mind offering my time, 10 minute calls for a free consultation, just to ask a quick question. So if somebody heard something here today they liked, feel free to find me, I’m easy to find online. Write me through any of my social channels, and you mention this podcast and I will definitely give you a 10, 15 minute call to help you out.

Karin Samelson:

Awesome, Lamar. Thank you so much. We’ll provide all the links to how to get in touch with Lamar in the show notes. So, thank you again for joining us. We really enjoyed it.

Lamar Romero:

Karin and Alison, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate being here today. Thank you.

Alison Smith:

Thank you, appreciate it.

Alison Smith:

UMAI Social Circle is a CPG, agency-driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind-the-scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram @umaimarketing, or check out our website, umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

#22: Formulating Authentic Better-For-You Products With Marissa Epstein

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Alison Smith:
Calling all consumer goods business owners and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you. It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in, visit our website at umaimarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Karin Samelson:
Welcome to the UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Karin and Alison, co-founders of UMAI Marketing and we’re being joined by Marissa Epstein, a registered dietician and Truman scholar recognized to her commitment to health education, lecturer at the University of Texas McCombs Graduate School of Business where she teaches nutrition entrepreneurship, and a general partner at Springdale Ventures, Austin’s very own 70% women owned VC firm on a mission to grow transformative consumer brands. Awesome. Thanks for being here, Marissa.

Marissa Epstein:
Thank you so much for having me.

Karin Samelson:
Great. Well, let’s get a little bit of a background. So, can you tell us a little bit of what inspired you to inspire nutrition and become a registered pediatric dietician?

Marissa Epstein:
Nutrition was on my radar growing up. I am from small-town Texas and food was such a part of our family and community as a cultural component. My mom actually immigrated from Mexico and so the dominant food culture in our home was traditional Mexican. And it was really beautiful, but over time, I found that we were becoming statistics. My senior year of high school, I was looking at photos of myself at my high school graduation party. And my mom had assembled all these pictures from Marissa from kindergarten, every year through high school, as moms do. And I was kind of horrified when I looked at a picture of me when I was graduating compared to going into high school. I had just gained so much weight and I was also pre-diabetic. I had sleep apnea. I had acid reflux. All these symptomatic issues that are born from not maintaining a healthy body weight.

Marissa Epstein:
And I see how it just shocked me and also gave me this ability and to have this beautiful thing, food, that brought us all together as a family had also evolved over time, away from the simple ingredients that is Mexican cooking into what’s more American, as my mom assimilated and became more Americanized over time. And of course, the standard American diet is pretty unhealthy. So, I went to college and my first, my primary goal was to really get myself back on track and take care of myself. And I just had this fundamental thought that, this was the time to get healthy. I went to Texas, UT Austin, I was on this amazing campus, I was in a dorm room, food was kind of taken care of for students with dining halls and stuff. I just like, “Wow, this is probably the easiest it’s ever going to get for me to control the choices of my food environment.”

Marissa Epstein:
And so I did and so I spent my entire freshman year getting fit and exploring food choices and learning about what I was eating, what was in the food I was eating. I kept a food journal for nine months and just started connecting food to what food I was eating and how it made me feel. I didn’t have a scale. I didn’t check my weight. There was none of that. I literally just slept, stopped drinking coffee, and ate according to how food made my body feel. And over time, as I started pattern matching, I started seeing that the foods that made me feel the best were all plants. They were vegetables, they were fruits, they were those lean proteins and fish.

Marissa Epstein:
And I didn’t really cut anything out ever, I just started to pay attention to the meals that made me feel great and the meals that didn’t make me feel great. And over time, spent more time eating foods that made me feel great. And those are the really hydrating food groups that we know and love today as plants. So, nuts and seeds and beans and every type of vegetable and every type of fruit and just nicer, cleaner meat and seafood selections.

Marissa Epstein:
So, as this diet transformation was happening, I was also starting to exercise again. And by the time that year was over, I had lost like 25, 30 pounds. And not in an unhealthy way, in fact, like I said, I didn’t even have a scale. I found out in my annual physical. And I didn’t have a mirror, a full-length mirror in my dorm room, so I tell this story and I just want to emphasize. I was very much separated from the aesthetic obsession of losing weight. It was really a special experience and from that, it just opened the Pandora’s Box for me. Like, “Wow, how hard it is to eat healthy.” And this was back in 2005, a long time ago. How hard it is to eat healthy, how counter-cultural it is, how much sleuthing you have to do, and planning you have to do. The environment is not encouraging you to pick fruits and vegetables as your meals and as your snacks on a daily basis, right? We’re flooded with processed foods wherever we turn.

Marissa Epstein:
And I thought, “Gosh, of course my family is in the situation we’re in. We’re subject to the environment. How can I change this?” And so it just really lit a fire under me to learn more about nutrition and to learn about what was in the food that we’re eating. So I took my first nutrition class at UT. It became a passion and an obsession, the science of it was so exciting to me at the mechanistic level, how these nutrients behave in the body and how our physiology interacts with the science of food. And the more and more I got into it, the more I loved it. So I decided to pick up a second degree in nutrition while I was at UT and worked my butt off to graduate on time.

Marissa Epstein:
And then went into my dietetics training in pediatrics and maternal health, and just fell in love with this moment that you have with children to introduce them to how things grow, introduce them to how to cook and prepare foods. It’s just a really special moment when women are pregnant and when families are being started and when kids are getting off to their first fights to excite them about plant foods, basically. And try to influence that palette early to obviously prepare them for a lifelong positive and sustainable relationship with food. So yeah, that’s how I got started.

Alison Smith:
I love that story and I love that you’re focusing on getting the kids set up for success. I grew up with meat and potatoes and vegetables usually were green beans that came from a can. And that’s just how we grew up, and totally fine, but I just wanted to share this anecdote. I just got from Guatemala for my 30th birthday and off this lake, everyone is basically vegan or vegetarian and I’ve never eaten so many delicious fruit and veggies in my whole life. And I had that same moment like, “Holy crap. I feel so good.” And it’s really not that difficult, you just have to go to the store more often I’ve learned. But just realizing how they make you feel, how veggies make you feel, I’m kind of just on my journey now, but I think that’s super cool story that you shared.

Marissa Epstein:
Yeah. I grew up the same, vegetables came out of a can for me growing up too, and we didn’t have a lot growing up. I wouldn’t have known that there was another way to experience vegetables but my mom would tell us stories about her childhood in Mexico and I was just enchanted. My mom in my mind, she lived this… She lived in like the Garden of Eden or something. They just have fruit trees growing everywhere and they all have gardens and she just spoke about that with so much nostalgia and grew plants in our… We had lots of fruit trees growing up in our house. And there was, I don’t know, the values that came around how she talked about that were just so clear to me.

Marissa Epstein:
We grew a lemon tree because lemons were expensive and she didn’t want to buy them from the grocery store. And we grew pomegranates because pomegranates were this very coveted fruit in our family. They only happen in season, they’re very expensive, we would only get one when we got to the grocery store. There would be no seed left unturned in a pomegranate once we opened it. We planted a pomegranate tree 10 years, at one point whenever we, like 10 years after planting it we finally had robust pomegranate fruit, really good grocery store quality fruit. And I just remember this appreciation for how hard it is to grow food, how resource intense it is, how when you connect how much is required to create food, you don’t want to eat a lot of it. You can’t eat a lot of it. You know how precious it is.

Marissa Epstein:
And that always struck me as so different than American culture where we have as much food as we want, it’s beautiful, no zucchini is unlike any other zucchini, it’s all identical. And once you unpack all of that and start to understand the supply chain and why that’s the case, turns out that something like 40% of our food all goes to waste. But it’s so counter to this land of plenty, it’s so counter to that values-based resource-constrained attitude towards food that made me, at least, appreciate it so deeply. And instead, consumers, we know now, are deeply confused by how many choices there are. You go to the grocery store and north of four out of five consumers report today that they are so confused that they actually walk away from the decision. Instead of-

Alison Smith:
Vision fatigue.

Marissa Epstein:
Exactly. Right?

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Marissa Epstein:
And so, we have this, I think it is false, the economics of it aren’t exactly capitalist with all the different subsidies and tax economics that go into how we grow our food, but it’s a false pricing in that you have so many foods that are so cheap and those prices don’t really capture all of the work that has to go into them, and they certainly don’t capture the resources that we’re losing and are wasting as a result. And so, I’ve always, I mean on a daily basis and I think what I’ve been obsessed with is like, how can I help people make these healthier choices that are unnatural in our food environment? It would be easy if we were living in my mom’s home town in Mexico, right? Just the way things were.

Marissa Epstein:
Yeah, here it’s not the norm. You really have to go out of your way or pay more to build that healthy diet. And can you imagine, Alison, if we lived the way you were living and it was just at your fingertips [crosstalk 00:13:07] and everybody did it and you didn’t have to think about and talk about or obsess about it. It’s just normal, like all-

Alison Smith:
It was just grown. And like you said, we are growing an avocado tree, a peach tree, and a lemon tree. The avocado tree is not doing so well, but the others maybe in a couple years will get there, but-

Marissa Epstein:
Yes, [crosstalk 00:13:28] personalities.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I think he might’ve given up on us actually, but we haven’t given up on him. But I like that, I’ve started to try to envision, and I’m sorry, we’re off a tangent here, but starting to envision, when you eat your fruits and vegetables, where they came from I think is really helpful. Thinking about all the background to how you got this banana in your hand is kind of, gets you nostalgic about food but… I could talk about that forever, veggies for life.

Marissa Epstein:
I like the idea of teaching kids this and helping connect them what their food is [crosstalk 00:14:11].

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Marissa Epstein:
It’s really fun. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
That’s cool. Very cool.

Karin Samelson:
I think something that really struck me with that was you mentioning people going to the store and not really understanding a lot of things and I had that experience when I worked at an egg company where we were coining the term pasturaised and it was pasturaised, it was free ranged, it was cage free, it was conventional and there were so many terms, so much terminology at the grocery store on the shelf. So with all of these product and packaging nutrition claims in particular, non-GMO project verified, certified, organic, gluten-free, fat-free, sugar-free, all of these claims, while some are really vital to the health of the consumer, like gluten free if you have celiac, this is very helpful. How do you feel about the buzz worthy claims? Like natural and organic that just flood the shelves, and I feel like, personally, they can confuse the consumer.

Marissa Epstein:
They do confuse the consumer. Take organic as a great example. Before we had to create the organic certification program, we didn’t know that there were pesticides used in conventional farming, right? The consumer didn’t. And so what the labels do, first and foremost, is draw a distinction between what you didn’t know you didn’t know about your food. And so this, I think, has inspired an extraordinary amount of fear across the consumer population about, what is really in the food I’m eating? And how is it really grown? And what am I really putting in my body? And the more has been revealed via the front of package labels, the more fearful we all are.

Marissa Epstein:
I mean, you just look at the GMO debate over the last 20 years, and at a fundamental level, there’s this concept that our food is being grown in a way that’s harmful to me, one, why don’t I know about it? And two, why is this happening? There’s a baseline trust in the system and then a label shows up and you realize, “Whoa, I can’t just assume everything that is conventional is okay for me.” And I’m not saying that it is or it isn’t, what I am saying is that that’s the characteristic, the emotional underpinning of the labeling conversations.

Marissa Epstein:
So then you start to pinpoint, okay, well all these different aspects about food, they need to be understood and then they need to be communicated to the consumer, and there are an infinite number of characteristics to choose from, right? Whether it’s growing methods like the USDA certification, organic certification covers, whether it’s the Clean Label Project and measuring the number of toxins in the food. Or whether it’s leached from the soil or if it’s used in manufacturing. It’s extraordinary.

Marissa Epstein:
So yeah, does that confusing? Yes. And does it end up putting a huge burden on the consumer to have to, I used the word sleuthing earlier, and that’s the only word I can describe, what investigative reporting requirement is incumbent on the every-day shopper. I mean, I’m a dietician, this is my profession, and I get confused at the grocery store. You should not have to have a nutrition degree to go grocery shopping. And so, yeah, it’s confusing but I think what you’re really asking about is like, what’s the fairness of that? And is that okay? And how do we feel about it being confusing? And I feel very strongly that the baseline should be safety and that it should be safe until proven… It shouldn’t be incumbent on the consumer to have to distinguish whether these choices are safe or good for us, right? Wouldn’t it be great if the baseline were good and that we could trust that and that we could not have this extraordinary cognitive burden every time we go grocery shopping?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Absolutely. And do you have any recommendations on how the brand can help with that burden on the consumer? So, is it through messaging? What can they do?

Marissa Epstein:
The brands need to tell… Well, let’s start at what the brands need to do behind the scenes before they talk to the consumer. They need to know their supply chain. They need to know their manufacturers. And they need to know their producers. That’s a lot of work, and right now, there are very few barriers to entry in the food business and you can really just build a food brand and launch it with pretty low burdens. That being said, your consumer will end up finding out what you’re about and what your product is. And you may cross that first point of meeting at point of purchase and with your packaging, but if you’re looking for repeat customers, we know the educated household shopper, primarily moms, they’re going to get under the hood and I always tell brands like, “You will be found out.”

Marissa Epstein:
So first and foremost, the best way to bring authenticity and transparency to your consumer is actually to know your product better than anybody. So you need to know, where are your ingredients coming from? What do they go through to get to your manufacturing site? What manufacturing practices are happening on site? What implication does your packaging have on your product? That formulation, people are always so quick to brag about the grams of protein or the amount of calcium, a very nutrient focused, but the formulation itself, is it legit? Or are you just reassembling synthetic nutrient inputs and putting together the new version of a cracker that’s supposed to be better for you? And so they really need to believe in that formulation and be working with a nutrition professional who can help really interpret the product in a way that has meaningful health benefits for the end user.

Marissa Epstein:
So my first piece of advice is, you need to know your product better than anybody else. And then the second is, okay, now how do you communicate this? Well you need to tell the truth, period. Anything that is an implication or that is trying to create a health aura about a product, and you can do that just with the colors of the packaging that you choose, right? Or I work with so many entrepreneurs who are so quick to want to make all of these outrageous claims about what their product can do. And I know that there is a market opportunity for that. We are aware that people buy based on whether they think a product is healthier than its side by side competitor. But in the long term, that will not win because when you claim to have all of these benefits that the consumer doesn’t end up experiencing, they’re going to drop you. And your product will win or lose based on the function of whether it “worked”, instead of whether it tasted great and made someone feel really good.

Marissa Epstein:
So, I always ask entrepreneurs to go through an exercise of all the things you want to say about your product. Which ones are unquestionably true? Which ones do you know are illegal? You’ve already gone through the FDA checklist and are sure that you’d like to, but you can’t put on your packaging? And then which ones are maybes? And basically if something’s a maybe, it’s not true. You need to stay really tight and buttoned up and clean about this and instead of trying to put everything in front of your consumer on the outset and over communicate and oversell, think of your product like an onion. And you’ve got the first layer that people see and you need to prioritize what goes on that first interaction, but invite your target customer to peel back the onion and get to know you better. And then ask yourself, as they get to know you, your founding team, your brand values, your vision, your product, your formulation, the ingredients, the nutrient panel, the nutrition panel, are they more delighted when they learn more? Are they happier with what they see? Are they more excited that they selected you as a pancake mix versus any other pancake mix on shelf?

Marissa Epstein:
And the fact is, if you take that approach, you will engender longer term loyalty. That’s what all the data shows. When people feel like they look on back of package and they see, “Oh, the front of package said this has 20 grams of protein, but that’s actually from some soy isolate that I don’t understand that got put in here that I don’t even know what the… When they see unfamiliar ingredients, they’re like, “What? Why did you do this to me?” They get upset. None of us want the wool pulled over our eyes. Or if they see a highly-functional beverage that is promising energy all day long because it’s plant based, and then they look on the back of pack and they see, “Oh, there’s just caffeine added to this,” there’s dissonance there.

Marissa Epstein:
And so I’m always trying to encourage entrepreneurs, “You’ve got to think about your product like you think about people.” Good people with strong values have great long-term relationships with their friends. They’re consistent. They do what they say they’re going to do. They deliver on promises. They’re there for you when you need them. And so really, great products are like great people.

Alison Smith:
I mean, as marketers, our whole job is to improve someone’s life but you can get in a lot of trouble with just making those direct claims. There’s a lot of different ways to do that. But I wanted to ask you, as a consumer, what are some red flags in terms of claims that are on packaging or elsewhere that a consumer should be worried about?

Marissa Epstein:
Yeah. There’s a totally new generation of front-of-package attributes that are coming out that many of which are, we’ve never even seen before. And so really, it unfortunately is incumbent on the consumer to try to figure out what they mean. My first response to that is, well, front of package isn’t the only place to look for information on the real story. You need to look at the side panel or the back panel. Sometimes you have to even go online, I do all the time, to try to figure out what the actual product is. I think the ingredient list is the most telling piece of information about a product. And that’s always going to be on the nutrition panel, right under the nutrition facts.

Marissa Epstein:
So, reading that ingredient list and really trying to identify, are these ingredients familiar? Do you know what these words means? Are you comfortable with this? And if not, don’t hesitate to just put it back on the shelf. We market products based on the nutrients that they have, but your body is actually receiving foods in the food matrix. So, we can extract protein from soy, or we can feed people whole soy where that protein is accompanied by fiber and antioxidants and all these other benefits that exist in the matrix of the actual food. So when you deconstruct these food items and just extract one component, it doesn’t behave the same way in the body as it otherwise would accompanied by the rest of the substance that the food contains in nature.

Marissa Epstein:
So, the further we get from the way that whole foods exist on the planet, the more likely it is that these nutrients in isolation, these nutrients are being formulated in isolation and that front of package is marketing something that’s just nutrient focused and not food focused. So, my first advice, look at the ingredients label. When I go grocery shopping, I ignore so much of what’s on the front of package, and look at the nutrient label. So things that-

Alison Smith:
It’s pretty, but just turn it over.

Marissa Epstein:
Turn it over. And then what you’ll find is that that is so exhausting that I try to spend as little time as possible in aisles where I have to be looking at nutrient labels. And I’ll tell you the areas that do not require labels in the grocery store are probably the best areas to be spending time in. So, labels, I would say front-of-package attributes I’m excited about, I do think that the USDA-certified organic program is extraordinary. It’s stellar. It’s strong. I spent time at the Department of Agriculture and I know there’s plenty to critique, but it is truly one of the most well-run programs that we have in the country to certify organic agriculture practices and so I’m always looking for that label.

Marissa Epstein:
You mentioned natural, there’s no technical definition for that. So it’s just another nice word, like plant based, to put on the front of the package. But I’m always looking among packaged foods, foods that are made with fruits and veggies, you can put that on the front of the package and so I’m always excited to see that there’s different vegetables and different fruit components being used in packaged food. Whole Foods, I think, does a really great job of manufacturing its own 365 brand for example, with whole food based ingredients. So, if I’m looking at snack bars for example, I get more excited about labels that say, “Made with whole almonds,” than I do about almond extract on that ingredient list. And that shows up front of package.

Marissa Epstein:
There are technical definitions for the source of claims, so the nutritional claims, made with or good source of vitamin A, great source of vitamin A, [inaudible 00:29:22] vitamin A. And so those definitely call my attention and then I’ll look at back of pack to find out, “Okay, is this vitamin A because there’s butternut squash in this? Or is it vitamin A because it’s been fortified?” Always thinking through the bang for my buck on ingredients versus nutrients. But I would say those are some of the call outs that I’m excited about.

Marissa Epstein:
On the manufacturing side, there’s all kinds of cool stuff coming up. Obviously in the coffee space, fair trade has been around for a really long time, but now there are labels that are even showing up that are more, I think, fair and exciting and demonstrative of what good supply chain practices look like. I mentioned the Clean Label Project, I love what they’re doing to really bring transparency to the leaching of heavy metals and other toxins that are showing up in food, especially categories like baby foods. GMOs are really interesting, because the GMO-Verified Project… Well GMOs are covered under the USDA Organic Certification, so I know that there’s a lot of confusion about that, so for I always go back on the GMO issue. What you can, if you can buy organic, and if companies can use organic ingredients, then you can even speak to a degree about your product being able to be made with organic ingredients or made with organic X, Y, Z input.

Marissa Epstein:
So yeah, I think in the spirit of looking for the most nutrient-dense and the most wholesomely grown products on the market, as many of us are, and as I’m sure many of your listeners are trying to create, you want to put the most legit claims on the front of package. And then be aware that people are going to flip that package over and when they try to interpret what’s on the front, you want to have legit information on the back. It builds a whole narrative, your packaging and then how your packaging then relates back to your own media online and how they discover your brand in social. And you just want consistency through that whole thing, like I said, an onion. If I see USDA, if I see made with organic fruits and veggies on the front, I’m going to flip to the back and say, “Okay, well what vegetables are in here? Which ones are organic?” Double click on that and explore it and if I’m happier with more I found out, the more loyal of a customer I’m going to be.

Marissa Epstein:
So for those brands who are coming out with some of these new labels, or new attributes and claims, I just look for opportunities to tell the story about what those attributes mean. I was looking at a company the other day that was claiming it was wild harvested, and I’d never heard that before, and so we got under the hood. What does that label mean? Why are you using that term? Describe it. To me, how can we describe that to the customer better? And I think it’s very, very cool. They want it to mean that the main ingredient that they use is grown without really being touched by any sort of industrialized, agriculture process. It’s just wildly grown and it’s wildly harvested. And in a natural state, actually in honor of indigenous practices hundreds of years since. So, very cool story and you would want to unpack that attribute for the consumer to really help them appreciate the thoughtfulness that you’re bringing and trying to describe the brand to the customer.

Alison Smith:
I was just going to say, I like that whoever you’re speaking of didn’t follow just the hot claims list and kind of went with storytelling and was really, like you were saying, true to their brand.

Karin Samelson:
Totally. And it’s one thing to put things on your packaging and it’s another thing to tell that story just like y’all said through your marketing, through everything on your website, through everything you’re pushing out on social.

Alison Smith:
But we talked about basically what consumer goods brands should portray on their packaging, but we’re curious, are there some new consumer behavior changes that you’re noticing that people are looking for? I mean, we talked more about basically that the average consumer is just more curious and educated. So, what are those and how can CPG brands just get ahead of these changes?

Marissa Epstein:
Yes. The average consumer today is much more educated about nutrition than they were five, 10 years ago. I think the trends that I’m seeing are the need for, with that increase of understanding of what nutritious foods are, is also coming a frustration with how difficult it is to eat that way. And therefore, a real lean into convenience. So, I think frozen foods have really just exploded over the past year or two. What a great way to get freshly-picked, nutrient-dense fruits and vegetables that have a long shelf life because they’re frozen and can be packed with great benefits that you would get from fresh food that you would otherwise be worried about wasting in the fridge. So, there’s lots of innovation happening in frozen that I get excited about. And I think people have moved down that aisle more frequently over the last couple years, especially with the pandemic.

Marissa Epstein:
Another trend in the convenience space is what I’m going to call like whole food packaging. So, everything from snackable miniature English cucumbers to [inaudible 00:35:19] which is a portfolio company of ours rolling out prepped vegetables. The smoothie blends obviously. Easy to make or easy to throw in your blender. We all watched that happen with Daily Harvest, but it’s a format that really works. And I’m seeing it across categories, baby foods to adult snacks and breakfast. So I think these semi-prepared grocery ready items that with just a few steps, people can have ready to go is an exciting trend.

Marissa Epstein:
The other consumer trend that I’m following is really this extraordinary aware of plastics and how… It used to be the case that we all said we really cared about the environment, but it wasn’t a lead in our purchasing behavior. But now, if you stack up two very similar products next to each other and one has more sustainable packaging than the other, people are choosing the more sustainable packaging. It’s a great way to differentiate and it’s also, as we’re all thinking through and corporations are thinking through what their footprints look like, how to reduce these non-renewable materials in the supply chain is showing up in consumer interest.

Marissa Epstein:
So, I get to excited about that. The technology isn’t there yet to really, especially for early-stage brands, to be able to afford to bring about that level of transformation, but it really feels like we’re moving in that direction where one day it would be pretty standard, to have renewable, recyclable materials and eliminate plastics from the supply chain.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. And it’s really something that small brands can truly aspire to. One of our clients, Serenity Kids baby food, if you’re familiar, they partner with TerraCycle to recycle their pouches, but it’s so very expensive, so getting there eventually I think is really admirable, but understanding that shipping glass is really heavy, and it breaks, and things like that. So knowing that you can eventually get there is something that you can aspire to.

Marissa Epstein:
Yeah, definitely. And I think that all those steps that you make along the way as you move from small marginal changes at every packaging refresh is an opportunity to tell your customers that you’re progressing towards that aspirational goal.

Karin Samelson:
Can you share some of your favorite consumer goods brands right now? Any brands that you can see are really innovating or making a difference? A brand that other founders can look up to and get inspired by?

Marissa Epstein:
Well, I love all the brands in our portfolio, obviously. One of the brands that I am just so excited about Caraway, they do just an extraordinary job on product and experience in building out cleaner cookware. This is just an area, again, where that same feeling of toxicity in our food translates to the toxicity in the equipment that we use to cook. And so using cleaner cookware and providing a solution for everyday people that’s still stick free is just, it’s beautiful and it’s inspiring and they’ve thought through everything from not just product but all the way to how it arrives in your kitchen by providing sleeves for the lids to the pots and pans, because all of us know how messy our drawers get. And then even organizers for inside of your drawers or your pantry for you to keep your pots pristine and unscratched. So I think the thoughtfulness that I’ve seen in that brand and how they’re conveying their values to their customer with little touches like that has been really cool.

Marissa Epstein:
I’m also really exited about our company, one of our portfolio companies, Atlas Coffee Club. They are a subscription coffee company and they, I mentioned fair trade earlier, they’re going above and beyond fair trade standards, and communicating these story lines to the customer of how coffee is actually grown all over the world and that there is more to explore and I think that that adventuresome invitation to get to know and explore coffee is a relationship they’ve been able to build with their consumer that’s really exciting to me. I think it’s so differentiated.

Marissa Epstein:
And then the other brand I’ve mentioned is In Good Taste, another portfolio company. They did… The genesis, born out of the pandemic to start a company that sends tasting size bottles of wine to your house for you to experience a wine tasting at home. So clever and also really changing the way we think about exploring wine, going from having to take ourselves to Napa or Italy is certainly not feasible for me right now. And I think bringing that experience into your home is just another way that a brand has really thought through the consumer and their experience and how they can activate that experience in house.

Marissa Epstein:
So, I really get excited about brands that obviously know their end user really well and are putting themselves in the shoes of the end user and trying to not just solve their pain points and then go above and beyond to also surprise and delight them.

Alison Smith:
Those are three very cool brands. Thank you so much for sharing. I felt like you were speaking directly to me about having an organized drawer, so I’m going to go check out Caraway for sure.

Marissa Epstein:
Yes.

Alison Smith:
And also, yeah, I mean the wine too, that’s cool. But Marissa, thank you so much. I feel like this, we just learned so much. Sorry for going on a tangent in the beginning, but it’s just so interesting and I think what you’re doing is really cool. With that being said is, how can someone reach you? Is there any way for someone to send you an email or chat with you?

Marissa Epstein:
Totally. Yeah. I’m just marissa@springdaleventures.com. Feel free to send me a note, and I’d be delighted to meet any entrepreneurs in your audience and hear more about what they’re building.

Alison Smith:
Thank you so much.

Karin Samelson:
Thanks so much Marissa.

Marissa Epstein:
Thanks guys.

Alison Smith:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG, agency-driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind-the-scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram @umaimarketing, or check out our website, umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

#21: Joi Chevalier on Thoughtful, Repeatable Management Systems

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods, business owners, and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you. It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in, visit our website at umaimarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Karin Samelson:
Welcome to the UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Karin and Alison, co-founders of UMAI Marketing, and we’re being joined by Joi Chevalier, founder and CEO of the Cook’s Nook, a truly mission-driven food and tech culinary incubator cultivating community here in Austin, Texas. The Cook’s Nook provides commercial kitchen space to its members, as well as business and entrepreneurship development consulting. Thank you so much for joining us, Joi.

Joi Chevalier:
Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it and like being with you guys.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, let’s dive a little bit into your background. You have an extensive background in product management and strategy in big tech. Can you tell us how the Cook’s Nook even came to be?

Joi Chevalier:
Well, sure. I make light of it. I was working on my PhD and literature in technology, and talking about this thing called a product manager, and where we turning our instructors, teachers, into product managers in early days of developing online pedagogies and tools and systems and network-based classrooms. I was one. I was building an entire classroom to teach British literature, 16th century, 17th century, British literature, in fact, in network classrooms.

Joi Chevalier:
I was actually in building asynchronous chat systems, tied to them, and all kinds of things. Companies saw all the stuff I was working on and writing and doing talks and papers on. You could still find them all online, probably in the way back internet way back card type somewhere. I ended up working for technology companies, director of marketing and products. Eventually, after startups here in town and acquisitions on some products, my focus was really around community personalization and customization of technology and data and platforms and experiences.

Joi Chevalier:
I wound up at a very large Fortune 50 here in the area in Round Rock, and basically eventually owned all of their authentication systems as the senior product manager and strategist global. Got to be the in-house… Product management, I’ve always believed, since you have a number on your back is the owner for a strategy and a revenue. It is the inbound marketing owner. It is the one who determines what needs to be in the market, how to get to market, what is the product market fit, the customer market fit? What is the thing that is supposed to make money? What is the thing that is supposed to drive the business?

Joi Chevalier:
I mean, the idea of getting a product to market means you have to have a process and a means and a vision on how to get products to market, and what is the product. And you have a clear notion of your relationship to a customer. There is nothing but them. Then the rest is, how do you organize the business and how do you speak clearly to a development and operations process, in a form of a series of requirements that are clear, unequivocal, and represent a set of features that you know speak to a persona or personas that have real utility to them in the market that will help them solve a problem and get something done? And give development a real set of criteria that are acceptable and you know the cost of those things.

Joi Chevalier:
But the cost of those things, if they’re done well, will be far less than the revenue you know that you can make with that audience at the end of the day. And you have a pretty high confidence that you can do that in that feature set. I just define product management. And to get that product to a launch effectively, knowing what that market needs and expects, and to go out and talk to a whole bunch of folks and a whole bunch of analysts and get my product marketing teams, and then eventually PR teams and others to do the work, to speak to those folks, doing their outbound work, to get that out there.

Joi Chevalier:
You get good at doing this process over and over and over and over and over again. And so, after doing it so much, and you start to get to a point where it’s all you think about, and it’s what you know how to do. That’s great, and it does lead to success and it does lead to… I mean, I had a very successful career doing that. But after a while, you know that that can be put to good utility in other places and for other benefit.

Joi Chevalier:
For me, that other benefit was how do I see other people being successful in this way? Can I show this to someone else? Are there women? Are there Black and Brown entrepreneurs who need to know this? I see so many products and people trying to make products. And to me, it is by that time is now natural. It was learned, but it now comes naturally. And so, I decided to go to culinary school at night while I was running those kinds of things. I would run a program that runs stuff during the day, and about four o’clock, I would jump the car, come back down I35, put my little Cami hat on, put my little jacket on, and run into school here at Escoffier, right across from a Highland Mall, jump out.

Joi Chevalier:
Nobody noticed I wore chef pants during the day. Black is black. Black is black. They didn’t notice, and would do that from 5:00 to midnight. I would just show up at work with a lot of food during the day. “Would you like some brioche?” They were like, “What are you doing? Brioche?”

Karin Samelson:
Made it last night.

Joi Chevalier:
“Made it last night.” Exactly. Most of my team knew. “Got focaccia.” It was funny. They just started coming around to my desk. “What did you make?” “That was rice last night. You don’t want that.” They knew. They knew because it wasn’t a secret. Had a great circle. I had great vice presidents and I had great others. “Joi is always doing something, because she could do products all day long. She’s been doing them for a long time.”

Joi Chevalier:
And so, it just happened to be that one year in 2014, Dell stuck something out. It said, “Put your name on this list for a voluntary separation.” What the hell is that? It was like a lottery. It was like secret Santa or something. You’ve got to pay to play and stick your name on it, and find out what it’s about. You’re like, “Okay. The hell.” Well, a lot of people put their names on it. Let’s just be honest. There was a lot of names, and my name was on it.

Joi Chevalier:
Vice-president, actually CTO of the company, saw my name on the list and said, “Your name can’t be on this list.” I mean, what’s the list? We don’t even know.

Karin Samelson:
I just want to find out what the [crosstalk 00:08:31] is.

Joi Chevalier:
I want to [inaudible 00:08:31] what it is.

Narrator:
I want to win.

Joi Chevalier:
I want to win. I know, exactly. Is this [inaudible 00:08:39]? What is this, seriously? I mean, I had an idea, but what is it? He said, “Your name needs to come off the list.” I was like, “Okay, well, make me an offer. I’ll take my name off the list.”

Narrator:
Does that basically mean they over-hired or were having a year that they didn’t expect, and that’s how-

Joi Chevalier:
No, that typically means they’re trying to get rid of an entire sort of thing they’re [crosstalk 00:09:04]-

Narrator:
Program? Oh, okay.

Joi Chevalier:
It’s a band of folks. They were looking to get rid of everybody between seven and 15 years. They were just trying to cut dollars.

Narrator:
Wow.

Karin Samelson:
Corporate world. We’re not a part of it.

Joi Chevalier:
That’s just corporate. Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Joi Chevalier:
That’s exactly what they did. They got rid of directors, all of us who were at director level.

Narrator:
Wow.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. They were-

Karin Samelson:
Well, they gave you the opportunity to do a passion project that’s turning to a career.

Joi Chevalier:
I saw it as an opportunity, and that’s why I was okay with my name being on the list. I mean, I wasn’t crazy. Come on, I was corporate.

Karin Samelson:
I’ve been here.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. I knew I was putting my name in a hopper.

Karin Samelson:
Okay. That happened. Then the Cook’s Nook. Was that always in the back of your mind or did it-

Joi Chevalier:
It was. It was.

Karin Samelson:
… take you a while?

Joi Chevalier:
No, it was actually my project while I was in culinary school.

Karin Samelson:
Okay.

Joi Chevalier:
When that happened, if I was going to go, I was okay with it. If I was going to stay, I was okay with it. That’s why I suggested for them to make me an offer. You had to make me an offer to stay.

Karin Samelson:
Love it.

Joi Chevalier:
They did, actually. They made me an offer to stay. It was a good offer too, actually. But I ended up leaving. And so, it gave me the opportunity to execute upon the project that I product managed, which was this thing I had written out while I was in culinary school. I had drawn the pictures for, had done the SWAT analysis, and the feature lists, and written up the requirements for. I did exactly the same work. I had gone around, gone around town, done the zip code work, done the demographic work, and then the same exact work I would have done for any new product.

Joi Chevalier:
Determined that there was a gap in the market that was not here, which was how do we have a space in a place that spoke directly to entrepreneurs, that gave me centralized place to rally around, to talk about entrepreneur issues and functions was a turnkey solution for entrepreneurs to come in, to use the space, have a co-working space, a smaller event space, the production facilities space, and the business services around them to try to help them launch their products and least get first initial traction into the market. That was the definition. And then it had a set of requirements, what needed to be there. Sounds like a product?

Karin Samelson:
Sounds like a product.

Narrator:
Yeah. I love how you somehow simplified it. I mean, it seems like this abstract idea about the way, I guess, your brain works is you’re able to simplify it and make it something that makes sense, and as consumable, really…

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. That was it.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Joi Chevalier:
It needed to have these features. I wrote out all the features. I Moscowed the features, just like you do, must have, could have, should have, would have. I gave each feature an approximate cost. I started to prioritize them and an approximate cost for those features. Right. And then I had to go to a development team, aka general contractor, and an architect to tell me how much it would cost to get those features.

Narrator:
You’re solo, besides your devs? Is this just you? Awesome.

Joi Chevalier:
It was.

Karin Samelson:
Wow.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. Me and my devs, and I went and got a marketing team, aka Flywheel Creative. That Karen Barry and her company. Yeah. That was pretty much it.

Karin Samelson:
I think the one thing that’s really sticking with me as you’re talking about the product management and how it has translated into the Cook’s Nook is the huge importance of processes. Once you have them down, they can be repeatable and they can be successful. How important is it for CPG business owners to have these established processes in place before they really start doing the work?

Joi Chevalier:
They can be, but they don’t have to be. But once you realize that you have a process, you should commit to it, write it down, and know when you do it again, that you have to edit it, which means you had to write it down and put it someplace. So you can’t come back to it and say, “Here’s how I just changed it. Was it better or did I make it worse?” If you’re not willing to commit to the mental work of process management, or process change, then you’ve captured nothing about what you’ve done. You’ve captured absolutely nothing.

Joi Chevalier:
You can’t even examine what you’ve done. You can’t even learn from what you’ve done. You can’t take any benefit from what you’ve done. And so, you’re learning it every time you step in it, and that’s slow. It’s slow and costly. Let alone take benefit of looking over and seeing what somebody else has done. You’re not even looking at what you’ve done. Some people get that and it just pains me, because you can hear it in my voice when I can’t get that across to somebody, to look at what you’ve done for yourself.

Joi Chevalier:
I get that it’s overwhelming for some people sometimes, and maybe that’s just I’ve got to find a way to not make it so overwhelming. The idea is to get that under control over time, but it’s still not pretty at first. It is not. It is not. Your days are long and heinous until that process improvement starts to kick in and you start to realize the benefit of it, because you’re not stepping in it as much. But you’ve got to commit to writing down when you do learn things so that it benefits you later, so that you get control of your time, your SOPs, your processes to benefit you later.

Joi Chevalier:
You’re going to invest the time upfront, so you get it back in droves later. You can share it with others because you’re going to have to give it away. You will not just be you by yourself hopefully soon enough.

Karin Samelson:
Such [crosstalk 00:15:42].

Narrator:
Right. That’s so [crosstalk 00:15:43]. That’s a good lesson all in itself. I mean, you have to get your process that may be so apparent to you, and the explanation about your product, that’s so apparent to you… I mean, we see it a lot in the marketing world where you’re not communicating it properly to your team or your consumers really. But thank you for that.

Joi Chevalier:
I will tell you. That’s the reason why I was struggling today is because I was doing the transition with someone, and felt that things were not written. It was somebody transitioning for another role, somebody else in my company was transitioning. And because it wasn’t written, I was having to go back and do that for somebody else.

Narrator:
Right. Yeah. Just, I mean, systems should be in place with any business, because, I mean, it’s not just a tech thing or what have you. It really is important for every business. So I love how you explain that. I can’t wait to learn more about how you think about entrepreneurs as how entrepreneurs should think of themselves as product really. You talked about that earlier, but I really want some more background first on-

Joi Chevalier:
Sure.

Narrator:
… big tech to food. I’m assuming you have a passion for food. If that’s correct, where does that come from? What does food mean to you?

Joi Chevalier:
Great question. I would say it’s in my own family. The week of Juneteenth, I did three food demos. It’s so funny because we’ll talk about this and CPG and food and tech don’t actually ever see me actually do foodways work. Foodways folks, who I do, lots of talks with, don’t ever see me do this stuff. It’s really funny how these are really completely split. But yeah, I do a lot of talking on foodways and African-American foodways and food history. One day I’ll write a cookbook. We’ll eventually get there.

Karin Samelson:
Ooh, cookbook.

Narrator:
[crosstalk 00:17:51] for that.’

Joi Chevalier:
On coastal Texas cuisine. I’ll get there. My family’s from Houston, and East Texas, and Southwest Louisiana. My family was one of the first early families in old French town in Houston, which is in Kashmere Gardens, 5th ward, in Settegast, and started a couple of the Black Catholic churches in the area. That’s just a tradition I grew up in, fish fries and [inaudible 00:18:21], and bazaars. Went to Catholic school all of my life until I came to UT.

Joi Chevalier:
And so, grew up around food, and cooking food, and making food, and especially the food on special occasions. Just real food made… I don’t say real food, but just that very earthy food. In particular, the East Texas, that was very vegetable forward, through my grandmother and her family, and still the food that I work a lot with and celebrate. I still cook. I cook a lot. I’m notorious for food and my friends love coming to eat when I cook.

Joi Chevalier:
And so, the idea that when I was sitting there at days wondering, “Adele,” What my next act was going to look like.” It was, “Wow. I could be yet another technology company, but I don’t think that’s what it is. What is that thing?” I think it’s in food and, God, it is not a food corporate. Geez. Can you imagine me at a brand company? I think I would look at those folks even crazier than I was looking at tech corporate.

Joi Chevalier:
I have a tendency to look at my own uplines like, “Really?” It’s a terrible habit of mine, because I was notorious for that too. They’re like, “You can’t even hide your face in a corporate meeting.” No, I can’t.

Karin Samelson:
Zoom camera off now.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. I’ve done that. I mean, I wish. If he would just go, “You’ve got something to say, boy?” “Oh, no, keep going.” But again, it just ended up being it was in food. And then what is that? And before for Dell, I had been at startups. I mean, I was in startups more than I was at Dell. Going into a fortune 50 was… I mean, to this day, my friends who I was in startups with for the longest time here in the Austin area, are they still laugh? Because they were like, “Really?”

Joi Chevalier:
When I said I was going to go to Dell, they were like, “Really? They still crack up at that. That was a shocker for me to go someplace so big. They all stayed in startups, very successfully so. But that’s all they ever did. And that’s what my crowd always did. And so, it was going back to something small. If it was entrepreneurs, food entrepreneurs, all right, then. So what does that look like, and who is that, and does that make sense, and what are they missing?

Joi Chevalier:
Then that’s how I got into that product process. What is this? And let me go figure out what that is and what that looks like. Yeah. Yeah. And so, it’s afforded me a platform to be able to talk about these issues in food and tech, label it in food and tech. I mean, we were some of the first to talk about that five, six years ago. And first started talking about it, “This food and tech, what is it?” It’s not big ag. It’s not corporate food. It is this marriage of food and entrepreneurs.

Joi Chevalier:
I’ll yank that back all the time when I’m in corporate food conversations or national calls because big ag tried to yank it. Nope, not you all. This is entrepreneurship in tech is about entrepreneurs. It’s about new food and it’s about innovative food. It’s not brand food stop and it’s not big ag. Well, big ag is a source of new technology. I understand what you’re saying about technology. And a lot of new tech is coming out of ag. But when we say food plus tech with the little plus, food plus tech, we’re talking entrepreneurs, kids. In specific one of those categories, and that is CPG, let’s be clear. But they did try to yank that.

Joi Chevalier:
And so, what does food in tech. Food in tech is this ability to try to take what we’ve learned in technology about these iterative processes, getting to launch as quickly and getting through iterations quickly and bringing that into a culinary space, to the benefit of entrepreneurs, the food entrepreneurs, and teaching them these same methods and methods of thinking, in order to get them there fastest because they need to get there fastest.

Joi Chevalier:
It’s not restaurant work. It’s something else. Even at the Cook’s Nook, we have a minimum of… A lot of times, people, when they go into a space, they have a year’s lease. Our minimum has been four months. Why? Because the idea is that you should be able to get into a process quickly enough, fast enough, get launched and get some early traction. And if we’re good, it should take you four months.

Narrator:
Wow. Are you saying on average, generally… I know a lease is usually a year, but because of that year lease, does it take others on average a year to get up and running and you’re able to cut that down to four months?

Joi Chevalier:
No. What we’re saying is we ask them for a minimum of four months. And then folks can just go month to month after that.

Narrator:
Do a lot of them get there that quickly?

Joi Chevalier:
Many of them do.

Narrator:
Nice.

Joi Chevalier:
Yes. If they get at least something out into the market and get themselves and trying to get others to talk about it. Yeah. Some people don’t, but most of them do. I’d say more than 50%, 60%, they get something in there and out the door that they’re comfortable with, and start to try to talk about it, try to get a sales process going. Get into a store, get into some early events, try to co-brand, a little thing with someone else, do pop ups. Whatever the events might be, they start to do some things. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
That’s so interesting because so many CPG founders, they have full-time jobs. They’re doing what you did after their corporate job, 5:00 to midnight or later, grinding for this mission-based product that they believe in. That’s who we honestly love to work with as well because when they have a product they believe in, they work hard.

Joi Chevalier:
They work hard. The question is, do they know the right things to work on, and say no to not work on the stuff that’s easy, that comes easiest to them. Even I had to. It was, “Hey, let’s go build a website, Joi.” Yes. Of course, Joi wants to go build a website and make some brochures. No Joi. You’re not going to go build the website and make some brochures. What are you going to go do, Joi? You’re going to go do the horrible hard thing.

Joi Chevalier:
Well, not horrible, hard. It’s just the one you don’t enjoy. Go Moscow this stuff. Go and stand down there in the development office, and try to get this building done, that you don’t know how to get done, that you can’t get these people to move on and go do the horrible parts. Or what is your process for getting entrepreneurs in here? Go figure out how you’re going to go find and meet entrepreneurs and tell them about this place. It’s easy for me to sit in the background because I do products.

Joi Chevalier:
The day I woke up and said, “I need to go find somebody else to build me a website and an e-commerce process,” that was a revelation for me. I had to give it away. That’s not mine anymore. It’s not me. Wow.

Narrator:
That’s hard. That’s hard as an entrepreneur.

Joi Chevalier:
I can’t do that. I’m not allowed to do that. Okay, then what do I do? Well, but I’d save money if I did it. But, God, it would take me weeks.

Karin Samelson:
And somebody can do it better.

Joi Chevalier:
And they’ll do a way better job than I would. Way better job. Okay.

Karin Samelson:
Leaning into the hard stuff, even if it’s not the things you want to do. I think that’s a good lesson for anybody who’s wanting to build something with their own two hands.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. Joi, go stare at your spreadsheet and figure out where your holes are and make equations in an Excel table and spreadsheet. I could do high level. Sure. But having to really dig into Excel, that was painful. I mean, [crosstalk 00:26:46]-

Karin Samelson:
I hear that.

Joi Chevalier:
… I can always get that back from the finance group. I had somebody else to do it for me if I really had to. Nope. Not anymore. God, I hate that. I had to have a Come-to-Jesus about them, I mean, literally in the middle of the night, “There’s nobody else coming for you, Joi. There is nobody, and you have to know these numbers. You have to make at least an attempt to figure out how to make these sums, because if you don’t know this math, you are going to screw yourself and your husband, and it’s your money. It’s not Michael’s money. It’s your money. And it’s your retirement money. And there’s no more money coming because you’re not making six figures anymore. So suck it up and figure it out.”

Karin Samelson:
Yep. I’ve got to grind.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah.

Narrator:
That’s such a leap of faith. It’s really cool to hear.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. Can you do this or not? Are you good enough to do this or not? You have done this and you know how to do this. Can you do this or not? Then shut up and do it.” Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. When you were in this process of the shut up and do it, how much did you have to lean on your community to support you?

Joi Chevalier:
That’s an interesting question. This is one of the areas I will say, “Do as I say, not as I do,” because I’m unusual in this regard because I did do this professionally for a long time. It was my job to build the spreadsheets, build a business case, build plans, demonstrate this to somebody else, get the funding, and do this work. So I could sit at my desk and build this because I’ve been doing it for 20 years.

Joi Chevalier:
As an entrepreneur, I think you will find it very difficult. I’ll be honest, I don’t think people understand entrepreneurs. I think sing and think, “Wow, entrepreneur is great,” but I don’t think people really understand it. I think it’s a mindset that people don’t get because it’s a level of risk in faith, in leaping, and risk that most people will never, ever, ever consider. Not do, just not even think about. There’s something wrong with you at the end of the day underneath it. There’s something not there’s something not right.

Karin Samelson:
You’re putting yourself in just a huge non-safe place.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. It’s the ultimate non-safe thing, and you made some other people non-safe around you.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Joi Chevalier:
No, I’m serious. There are some that [inaudible 00:29:28] safe.

Narrator:
That’s absolutely right.

Karin Samelson:
There’s a true vulnerability. Absolutely.

Joi Chevalier:
There’s an exposed thing about you, that people go, “Oh.” I mean, you could feel it. There’s a slight thing, “Okay. Wow. That’s amazing. You’re entrepreneur…” I just look at them. And so, I think it’s really hard for entrepreneurs to find a community of non entrepreneurs, family, friends, and others who will commit to them in their endeavors. I think that’s tough. If we keep knocking on that door, I think it’s really hurtful because they’re not going to be that vulnerable, exposed with you in that way. I think that is a very tiny universe that will.

Joi Chevalier:
Spouse, partner, maybe, and maybe to an extent. They’re going to commit the dollars or the relationship or be there, but not be with you in it all the time, every day. But they’re in it with you because they want you to be successful. They’re going to commit their home, their household, their dollars. But they’re not going to be standing next to you in the business, doing what you do every day.

Karin Samelson:
They’re just not going to fully get it.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. They’re not totally get it, but they’re [crosstalk 00:30:47].

Narrator:
I like what you said. It’s not fair to pull them into our crazy world sometimes.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. And I’m okay with that. My husband’s down. He’s been down. He knows it’s his money. This is his household. It’s his business, X, Y, and Z. Call him for anything, he’s down. But I’m not asking him to be right here every day. He doesn’t understand what’s happening in here all the time, and I don’t ask him to. He’s got a corporate job. And so, there’s always a little bit of distance about this topic, and that’s okay. That’s okay. I think we need to understand that and be okay with that.

Joi Chevalier:
Where do we find that that community you ask? I think that’s why it’s important to find other entrepreneurs. I think you’re going to have to. Here’s what I eventually did. A 20-year seasoned product manager, I went and registered in Tech Ranch’s Venture Forth class. Can you believe that? Kevin Koym looked at me like, “Well, don’t mind me. I’m going to sit right here in this class.” It wasn’t a negative to hear all this stuff again. But it was to go and meet people. I’m an introvert anyway. And to look at people and listen and see what’s being done and be okay with my own vulnerability in this.

Joi Chevalier:
“You’ll do a pitch at the end.: “No, I’m not.” “Yes, you will.” “I don’t need to do a pitch. I’m not looking for money. I don’t need to pitch anything.

Karin Samelson:
I’m just here to meet people. Don’t get me.

Joi Chevalier:
I’m just here to see people. Oh, I don’t need to do that exercise.” But I did. Then they brought the mentors in and I talked my company and it got better each time I talked about. I went, “Oh, I’m getting better at this.” My pitch got better, and my definition got better, and my four-piece got better. E Even my requirements got better. Then my pitch got better. Then I did do the pitch on the last pitch night. I did have an ask where I didn’t use to have an ask. Okay, I get it. An entrepreneur has to have social capital because you can’t build your product in a vacuum. That became the-

Narrator:
That is a great statement. I just have to point that out.

Joi Chevalier:
That became the brand new definition of the Cook’s Nook. None of us build a product in a vacuum. I could in a corporate, but you can’t out here.

Karin Samelson:
We don’t have Michael’s money out here.

Joi Chevalier:
We don’t have free money out here. That’s exactly right. Even in there, you weren’t supposed to either. That’s an artificial thing where we can’t go out and talk to every customer and jet on jets everywhere and go do what we need to go do. That became a defining statement in the Cook’s Nook. We still said that you can’t build a company in a vacuum. We are the first line at the Cook’s Nook for you to meet other entrepreneurs and start to get into places and events and activities, so you can meet others who help make you and your company better and your product better.

Narrator:
I love the tie to community, and that leads me to the next question we wanted to ask, is previously you were talking a lot about how [inaudible 00:34:30] should influence the CPG world, the changes that the CPG world needs to do based on what tech is doing. But what can the tech world learn from CPG?

Joi Chevalier:
Oh my gosh, remember that bit I just said about not making products in a vacuum.

Narrator:
It’s what I was hoping you would tie in here.

Joi Chevalier:
[crosstalk 00:34:52]. Oh my God. One of the things that we still do in our corporate section, if you stand aside, is we still engage with corporates in a lot of arenas. Some of that is still on product innovation. If I could tell you what some corporates are doing, you would just… I mean, there’s a reason why that some of them just are not growing in food spaces. They’re just not, and why they are desperate to do acquisitions, because they don’t know how to grow new products.

Joi Chevalier:
They don’t have a process from within to grow entrepreneurs. They are driven by R and D because we made some stuff and we should do something with it, or better yet file it. A brand group that says, “You know we don’t have anything in the CBD gummies sector. Did you all make something and put it on file?” That’s what happens. “Well, this is going to be a $300 million space. We don’t have anything in it. Let’s make up something.” Then they go build an AB tester package. A package, not a product. A package.

Joi Chevalier:
Then they dump $30 million in the hopes that they’re going to make a two, $300 million product. Then it doesn’t work and then they look confused, and it takes them two or three years to do it because it comes out over here in R and D and they have to test the heck out of it. They can’t make any claims about it. They have protocols about it. It takes these guys two years. These guys are testing a package on Facebook, seriously, on Facebook, and do some intercepts. Then they get somebody in China who’s going to do a scaling operations. That is how products come together. That does not work.

Karin Samelson:
What’s the first thing you would say to someone who took that route?

Joi Chevalier:
First thing I said was, “That’s not going to work.”

Karin Samelson:
What’s the second thing?

Joi Chevalier:
Second was, “Who’s actually making a product? Who owns product management? Who’s making a product? Who actually asked anybody, did they want a product, and what’s the product they want, and what’s the product they want to eat?” They didn’t have an answer for that. Those roles did not exist. They have brand marketers and then they have R and D. So who owns product? Who has a target on their back with a number? Maybe brand marketing. Yeah, but who owns the thing that somebody has to consume and ingest?

Joi Chevalier:
And so, we actually worked with a company to actually build a rather detailed product innovation process to try to get them there. Extremely dealt with deliverables at every step. “Here’s the documents deliverables that should come out of that and here’s a map of the process. And then during the process, here are the deliverables at each of these points. Yeah. And then here are the roles that are still missing for you.”

Joi Chevalier:
I mean, they were about ready to start having a entrepreneurial process, and out the gate, at the AB testing of a package, they were going to give them a quarter of a million dollars. But they didn’t show anything. They didn’t have any deliverables. Well, they AB tested a package. That gets you a quarter of a million dollars? Shoot. I need to come over here. You do something else and you got another 500,000. They were trying to create a portfolio that was somehow going to return in three years, $300 million portfolio.

Joi Chevalier:
I was like, “[inaudible 00:38:43].” I come back to your point, what can they learn is what does it take to really do innovation inside a corporate environment? What does that really look like? How do you carve that out? What are the roles? What are the timeframes and targets, or the expectations? We talked about what do those months look like for us? And what does that time look like? What does that time look like for them? What does it mean not to be in a vacuum?

Joi Chevalier:
What does that mean giving the leeway and the ability to actually allow people to go back out into the field? What are the real dollars around that? What are real expectations around products? What does that start to look like? And put that back in. What are real processes to get to the shelf, that are reasonable? It’s reasonable for those kinds of companies to believe they can get a good, solid product to the shelf in six to eight months.

Joi Chevalier:
If you told that to a large brand company, they would laugh at you. They would laugh. They don’t know how to do that anymore. They don’t know how to do that. But I bet you guys do. You guys know how to do that? They can’t. Okay, a year. They would still laugh. But you guys know how to do that, and on less than $250,000.

Karin Samelson:
Benefits of being small and nimble.

Joi Chevalier:
How do you be small and nimble and really need it and let them pull out a quality product with processes?

Karin Samelson:
Can’t bring up the processes.

Joi Chevalier:
With processes that they can see, because they’re going to want them, and that’s understandable. They don’t want people to be sick. Totally get it. Nobody wants people to be sick. Nobody. Entrepreneurs don’t either. They’re traceable. They still have SKUs and UPCs, and has some distribution, and affect an audience. You could still do that. They wouldn’t know how to do that. But you guys will, and that’s the thing that we can give back to them. They don’t have to buy it. They can learn it.

Joi Chevalier:
They don’t have to buy it and mess up another company or just leave it alone in isolation. But have it become part of their culture. That’s what they still haven’t figured out how to do.

Narrator:
So interesting.

Joi Chevalier:
That was a bit long.

Narrator:
No, no-

Karin Samelson:
No, I love it.

Narrator:
I just love that, speaking from someone who has 20 years of experience, knows that the food, CPG in specific, can show tech something, give them a little run for their money.

Joi Chevalier:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Narrator:
Good to hear. Good to hear.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t matter. It could be food corporate or it could be just pure tech. I mean, if I walked in certain Fortune 50s today and said I was going to do that, “You couldn’t do that.” I was notorious for getting large products done on no money. No money. The year I made 10 billion, I probably spent two million. One year, I was supposed to make two billion. I asked for three million. There were companies were around that were valued at 30 million who were doing the same work, and I think I got 750,000. I mean, it’s crazy. I mean, it’s crazy. You get nothing and expect to make big dollars.

Joi Chevalier:
But you don’t get the opportunity to be innovative and you can’t get quickly to market. And those things may or may not be persistent product to use. [crosstalk 00:42:37]-

Narrator:
That’s, I mean, something-

Joi Chevalier:
End up being throw away.

Narrator:
Right. That’s something that we tell the small, extra small, even medium-size CPG companies, is that you have the ability to pivot where these big brands can’t. It’s going to take them a long time if they need to. That is what can set you apart and make you successful, is you can pivot and you can listen to your audience and quickly change your offering or your communication, your messaging.

Joi Chevalier:
You absolutely can. But that means you had to already be thinking about it, and it’s okay to think about it.

Narrator:
But just listening really.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. Or just listening or spending the time, what’s next and what else could we be doing? And putting it in your back pocket. It’s not a betrayal of your current audiences and your current work to always think about, what else can I be doing and how can we be doing it better, or what’s next for us? You’ve got to have it on the side, and exactly last year showed that. That’s exactly those who in our space survived. That’s exactly what they did.

Narrator:
Right.

Joi Chevalier:
Because they already had a sense of what they could be doing or thoughts that they had had in the past, that they had set aside, that they came back to, or whatever it was.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Speaking of innovations, are there some innovations that you can think of right now that you’re seeing in the CPG space that are exciting?

Joi Chevalier:
Innovations in the space that are exciting? I think delivery… I don’t mean delivery mechanisms, but how things get to audiences, in that I like that somehow we’ve been forced to say we really need to meet people where they are. So we need to find ways to get food to where people are. If that is really finding solutions around vending mechanisms, then folks are going to do that.

Joi Chevalier:
I am thinking, “Well, I mean, I guess it’s not that far away.” You’ve seen people with lockers, but I’m thinking about getting beyond lockers. Remember, I come from a place where it is all about individualized, customized, personalized experiences. So how do I have a vending system that is ultimately customized, but it is your food customization? In that, here’s the example. Let me be very specific. You remember Alpaca Market? You guys remember?

Karin Samelson:
I don’t.

Joi Chevalier:
Okay. There has been food vending, cold food vending systems, or prepared meal vending systems that have been in markets and stores in places for a while. But they’ve not gone over horribly well because it can be high touch to supply to them. And if the prepared food does not sell very quickly, then you’ve got a lot of turnover in those spaces. They can be high cost to do that. But how do you have fresh food for salads, for smoothies, or things like that? And some sort of co-branding mechanism.

Joi Chevalier:
Even more so, how do you have something like prepared meals in them? Even more so, how do you have groups of prepared meals in them, especially if you’re doing food in secure places. And so, finding ways to solve those kinds of challenges and issues I think is the next great thing that still has to get solved because I’ve got to not only have it be able to be indoor-outdoor, I’ve got to be able to have it locked. But I’ve got to have it know you.

Joi Chevalier:
I’ve come back to this authentication question and how much it knows, not just the storage of it. But I’ve got to be able to manage it remotely. It’s easier for it to know you than for me to have to check it, if that makes sense.

Narrator:
That makes total sense. It’s hard to think on how that’s possible now since we’re leaning into this more era of privacy, I guess, is the way I would put it.

Joi Chevalier:
Oh, this is the ultimate in privacy. It’s easier for the system to know you, than for me to have to check on it. I only want to check to make sure that it’s gone. I don’t want to have to handle or manage it knowing you. And so, whether that’s fingering, knowing this is the Smith family, or somebody from the Smith family who’s coming to get all of their food out of one of the slots, and all of the meals.

Joi Chevalier:
It could be anybody from the Smith family, I don’t care, to come by and pick all the meals up. It’s only the things on that one slot, not opening the whole thing. It’s by slot. So I can put 15 meals for the Smiths in there, six meals for the Samuelsons in here, whatever that is. That can control that level of individual personalization and customization.

Narrator:
I see. Okay.

Joi Chevalier:
But manage the system.

Karin Samelson:
I feel like we need to put this in a time capsule, come back to it in five years and be like, “Wait. You’re talking-

Joi Chevalier:
I’m waiting for somebody to come and talk to me, the product manager.

Karin Samelson:
I look forward to this. It sounds so spacey right now, but-

Joi Chevalier:
Oh, it’s not that spacey. I mean, if you can have an individual small robotic vehicle drive up to your address with your hot pizzas inside, that costs way more and has way more technology in it than a standing multi-door locker that has individual coding on each of those-

Narrator:
How has-

Joi Chevalier:
[crosstalk 00:48:54] the recognition.

Narrator:
And face recognition. How are you thinking the food is produced? Is there…

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. Somebody would have to produce that, but yet.

Narrator:
Okay. Okay. I wasn’t-

Joi Chevalier:
[crosstalk 00:49:06] those items in there. That’s fine. That’s actually pretty standard transport. It is about the mechanism itself and making that viable and affordable. And having to write [crosstalk 00:49:21]-

Narrator:
You can partner with Amazon.

Joi Chevalier:
I’m sure Amazon already has. I used to talk to them. I need them to call me back. [inaudible 00:49:27]. The real issue is, yeah, but that one slot, the Smiths don’t use it anymore. Now it belongs to the Chevaliers. I don’t need anybody ever to touch it. I just need that to be reprogrammed. And then tomorrow it’s the Smiths again?

Narrator:
Pretty neat.

Karin Samelson:
Food and tech.

Joi Chevalier:
That is pure food and tech. I want that. I want to make that. I want to be the product manager who does that. I need somebody to call me.

Karin Samelson:
Call her.

Narrator:
Hold your line, please.

Karin Samelson:
We’re going to have your information in the show notes. If anybody hears that-

Joi Chevalier:
I need to own that. I want the IP for that.

Narrator:
Yep.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. You heard it here. I mean, [inaudible 00:50:13] down.

Joi Chevalier:
That, to me, is huge. Then the other part is I still think we haven’t gotten there yet in CPG. I think CPG can get there, but I’m still not sure how. I don’t think it will take a huge investment. I think it’s just a commitment in the teams and that really is the move to food is medicine. I’m not sure we have the right tech for that yet. It’s not something like a food lab determined the pH of your food it is. I’m not quite sure we have the technical support for that yet. And it’s not just a nutritionist on staff. It’s something else.

Narrator:
That is a tough one with lobbyist and big pharma working maybe against food is medicine.

Joi Chevalier:
No, I don’t think so. I think that’s going to be driven by the insurance companies. I think the insurers want it as part of their benefits packages, because it’s risk management and it’s quality.

Narrator:
That’s correct.

Joi Chevalier:
They’re driven by quality scores, like NPS scores, except there are benefits and insurer scores. They see more dollars by higher NPS scores. What drives NPS scores? It’s those benefits packages they call you about in saying, “Hey, do you know we also have a gym membership that you can get and we have food that you can get? And we have these other things that you can get. Your diabetes strips and your glucose monitor is also free in our programs. Those additional what they call those, the support programs or benefit packages programs, that’s all about quality and risk management.

Narrator:
So that’s saving them money in the long term. I mean, I wish my insurance company would call me twice a week and tell me to go work out and eat a salad. I mean, I would-

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, some programs you can, and having CPG realize that they’re looking for you. What do you need to have in your company to have your food be eligible to be in these programs? What does that look like? And what does that start to look like?

Narrator:
Very cool. The big question I wanted to ask, and you had mentioned it before the call, and just really want to wrap my head around this, from a products expert, you have said that the entrepreneur needs to think of themselves as a product. What do you mean?

Joi Chevalier:
That at the beginning of your company’s life, the thing that most often is being sold and thought is you, that you are the brand of the company that people will… What people and what investors often look for, you know this, they will take an 18 and a B product, right?

Narrator:
Yep. That’s so right.

Joi Chevalier:
And many entrepreneurs don’t realize that. I had to have one of my own friends and mentors remind me all the time. They tell me, and I know people don’t believe it, I am an introvert. He says, “You will never get away from it, Joi. You are the face of the Cook’s Nook. No matter what you do, no matter how you try, no matter how many people you elevate, no matter how much of a website you stick out there, it will always be about you.”

Joi Chevalier:
He saw me do this in the chair. No matter how many good ideas, it will always be about you, and I just have to say, “Okay.” And it’s true. People are going to invest in you or me, and that’s okay. I tell my other fellow introverts, “That’s okay.” For the extroverts, they’re like, “Okay.”

Narrator:
I’m ready. Been born ready.

Joi Chevalier:
[inaudible 00:54:39].

Narrator:
So CPG founders, think of yourself as a product.

Joi Chevalier:
As your product.

Narrator:
As your product.

Joi Chevalier:
As the first product. What are your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats? What are your best features? What are the ones you have to work on? Where do you need to make those investments? Where are the cells that you have to work on, on that spreadsheet? Those same questions you have to ask about you and the business because you and the business are the same. No, that didn’t say product, but you and the business are the same. And you have to sell you in that business.

Joi Chevalier:
That’s where those processes and all those other things become really important. Have you done those things to make sure that they see that there’s a healthy company around you, that you come as a healthy package and it’s something they could do business with. They can do business with you.

Narrator:
That’s not only going to help you attract the actual consumers, that’s going to help you attract that rock star team that everyone wants.

Joi Chevalier:
That team you need and the investors you need. Exactly, exactly.

Narrator:
Very interesting.

Joi Chevalier:
And we haven’t even talked about the product yet.

Narrator:
Right.

Joi Chevalier:
The other product, the one you actually eat.

Narrator:
The other.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. The other product.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. We talk about that so much in marketing, how people buy your brand story and how important that is. Really believing in it is the first step solving that pain point for yourself or for others.

Joi Chevalier:
Exactly. It is. You know what’s so hard, is feeling like you’re always delivering on the brand promise, and delivering on it every day as best you can, delivering on it every day, and having your team deliver on it every day too. We can always get so caught up in the weeds, and reminding your team about it too. Here’s our brand promise, and how are we delivering and shaping and delivering on it every day. God knows, some days you feel like you didn’t.

Karin Samelson:
A lot of days.

Joi Chevalier:
Yeah. You’re just like, “Ooh.” You’re sticking at it every day. Every day.

Karin Samelson:
Well, Joy, it’s been such a pleasure. This has been such a nice conversation. We’re so excited that we got to meet you and learn from you. I can’t wait for our next conversation, hopefully in person.

Joi Chevalier:
I know. You guys actually had real questions and stuff. I had to actually think and talk. I can’t believe you got me to talk about Venture Forth. I haven’t talked about that in a while. Kevin’s going to go, “Oh my God.” [inaudible 00:57:33] tell you was that, I mean, that affected me enough where I had to put him on my little board of advisors.

Narrator:
Wooh, Kevin. Okay.

Joi Chevalier:
I know. I know. I learned a lot in Venture Forth and a lot of it was about myself.

Karin Samelson:
Hey, that’s good learning.

Narrator:
That is really cool. Yeah. Thank you so much. You’ve shared so much wisdom and just the marriage of tech and CPG, I just love it. So thank you, Joi. If people are listening to this and they want to reach out or check you out, how can they find you?

Joi Chevalier:
Oh my gosh. You can find me, I am Cook’s Nook Austin on Facebook, and on Instagram, and I think on LinkedIn. But you can just find me as Joi Chevalier on LinkedIn. You’ll find all my professional stuff there. But definitely Cook’s Nook Austin. And on Twitter, Cook’s Nook Austin, on Facebook, Instagram-

Narrator:
Okay. Ooh, on Twitter. Okay.

Joi Chevalier:
And on Twitter, yeah. Sometimes we’re on Twitter. Actually, everything from Instagram goes to Twitter too. Yep. And then I think that’s it. Then on the website, cooksnook.net. Then we have workshops on different topics with folks in the community. I think there’s one on Saturday with Brian Marshall of BCL, Business of Community Lenders of Texas. He’s talking about getting new channels and new partners.

Joi Chevalier:
You guys remember Ben Ponder and the guys in [inaudible 00:59:07]? Well, we’re supposed to have a talk with Ben, though he’s gone to Dallas and they’re running their co-packing facility up there. We convinced Ben to have a talk and hopefully he will be on one of our talks in a few weeks. So it’ll be good to talk to Ben again.

Narrator:
Awesome. Check out the events page at cooksnook.net.

Joi Chevalier:
[crosstalk 00:59:29]. Yeah, cooksnook.net, but we’ll also post it up elsewhere too.

Narrator:
Okay. Great. Joi, Thank you again. This was really great, and great to meet you as well.

Joi Chevalier:
Oh, thank you guys for coming. You guys [inaudible 00:59:41]-

Karin Samelson:
Thanks so much, Joi.

Joi Chevalier:
And thanks for all the stuff that you all are doing.

Karin Samelson:
[crosstalk 00:59:45].

Narrator:
We try to show up every day, just like you said [crosstalk 00:59:48]-

Joi Chevalier:
I know. Every day. All right. I’ll talk to you guys later.

Karin Samelson:
Thanks, Joi. Good luck today with everything, all the systems.

Joi Chevalier:
I know, right? Exactly. All right. Talk to you later.

Karin Samelson:
Bye.

Narrator:
Bye. UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram at UMAI Marketing or check out our website umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #18: Food Styling and Product Photography Tips with Ashleigh Amoroso

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods, business owners and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time, stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads, but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you. It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today to join in visit our website@umaimarketing.com/mini-course. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Alison Smith:
Welcome to the UMAI social circle, where we talk consumer goods, marketing tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Alison and Karin co-founders of UMAI, and we are being joined by photographer, stylist and educator, Ashleigh Amoroso. So she’s led and worked on beautiful campaigns for Target, Patron, Vitamix, Tillamook, Noosa and that’s just to name a few. So Ashley, welcome.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Hi, thanks for having me.

Alison Smith:
Of course. Well, we’d love to just dive right in and learn how you got into the world of photography.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah, so it was kind of in a roundabout way to be honest, which is kind of how I feel like everyone lands in some creative field. But I did not go to school for it or anything. I never really considered it to be a possibility as like a full-time job. So I just kind of learned photography alongside, I apprenticed for a wedding photographer when I was in college and really just learned the technical stuff.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Then I knew I wanted to do that, but I didn’t know what that looked like. I knew I didn’t want to do weddings. So after I moved to Austin, I had a friend who was here, she has a food blog and she’s very well connected in the industry. She was like, “Hey, you do photography. Can you do this ebook that I want to do? And take pictures of the food for the blog.” I was like, “Sure.” So I tried it, I was horrible at it, but I really loved it. So that was in 2008 and I’ve been really interested in growing and doing it ever since.

Karin Samelson:
I love that.

Alison Smith:
What do you mean horrible at it?

Karin Samelson:
I was going to say…

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So horrible. When Instagram first came out and everyone takes pictures of their food and like puts filters on them and their like, “It’s so good.” Yeah, it was like that. I go back and look and the photos are kind of green. They had an Instagram filter on them. It’s like, “Is that macaroni and cheese? I don’t really know.” It’s just, it wasn’t good.

Karin Samelson:
Oh my gosh. The shame of scrolling to the very beginning of Instagram, seeing the Valencia pics and just all of the photos that we thought were like, “Oh yeah, this is art.”

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Totally, yeah. Very, very abstract, avant-garde start to my food photography journey.

Karin Samelson:
That’s awesome. So how did you, I know that you also have super established Instagram feeds like Instagram profiles. Did that come after you really got started in food photography or is that like right alongside?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah, that actually came much later. That was kind of just a weird little kickstart blessing, to be honest. When I started doing the food photography with my friend, who I was telling you about for the e-books earlier, I realized that I love taking the pictures, but I just didn’t have a good grasp of the business side that I needed to understand. I didn’t know how to do my taxes. I didn’t know how to, you know what I mean? I just really, client communication, setting expectations, all of those things, I just really did not understand very well. So that part took the fun out of it for me. So I actually went and worked for Apple at their corporate offices for a few years. I was with their executive relations team. I had an amazing boss, an amazing team I worked with and I learned so much. Because essentially my job there was communicating with internal business partners and doing all of those things that I didn’t know how to do before.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So that helped me tremendously. My boss was just so super supportive. So when I told them I was considering doing this full time, my husband was very supportive and said, “Okay, let’s let’s make it work.” Then my boss said the same thing. So I then left Apple and started doing this full-time. So I had kind of a weird roundabout way of getting here, but I’m so thankful that it went that way because I needed to learn the stuff I needed to learn from the corporate setting.

Alison Smith:
You were just doing photography on the side as when you were at Apple? Yeah?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
What a big leap of faith and it worked out. Well, I think this is the hottest question we would love to know. What’s your go to tools, props, et cetera? What does every photographer, aspiring photographer need?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Let’s see, I guess in regards to like an aspiring food photographer, I would say really the best place to start for props is just a defined style. The best way to really kind of do that, if you’re not really sure where to start is to just spend some time on Pinterest. Pin the images that you love, that kind of speak to you, and you’ll start to see kind of a style come together and then without copying, but practice those styles, practice finding out what are they doing in their lighting in those situations? What colors are they using? Are they using hard light, which is probably a flash, are they using soft muted diffused light. Those kinds of things will point you in a direction to give you the kind of props that you’re going to want. So for that, I would say a diffuser, you need a sheer window curtain. You really don’t need a ton to be honest. A seamless is always a good thing to have whatever color. I mean, white is kind of a go-to, but…

Karin Samelson:
So a seamless would be like a backdrop that goes into…

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah, it’s almost like a waterfall kind of effect.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Seamless are always super helpful. One other thing I would say would be just a really great textured, either table or backdrop that you make, which could be out of plywood or contact paper or something like that. Then depending on what you’re trying to take a picture of, you can use that as your background, typically texture can be missing from a lot of photos. So, that’s something I like to incorporate in my backdrops.

Karin Samelson:
I like that.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I feel like anything can be used as a surface. I know our in-house photographer. She’ll just go to the tile shops and get leftovers. I think that’s, I mean, it looks gorgeous in the photos. That’s cool.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah and you have no idea what you’re looking at. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Zoomed in, probably looks like a mess. Yeah.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
It’s so great. When I first started, I used to use this… First of all, money was tight. So I was trying to get really crafty with these surfaces because you can spend tons of money on this stuff.

Alison Smith:
They’re expensive.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So, I went to Ikea and I bought the desk tops and I would paint them or I would sand them and rough them up. Then the one that I still have that I use all the time is this matte blackout shade in black. I use it as just a backdrop in a scene so many times, because it’s just this perfect matte. There’s no reflection. It was $30. It’s like my favorite thing I have.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, I love it. Yeah. I really liked the note to first and foremost, define your style. Because I feel like so many times we’ll be talking to a business owner who’s like, “Oh, I really like this. I really like this.” One is just a major studio shot with a really strong flash. One is just that outside, ethereal like shadows. Sometimes it’s really hard to put those two together. So finding your style, I love it. Cool. So what are some of your favorite campaigns that you’ve worked on so far and what made them your favorite?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Oh my gosh. That’s such a nice question. A couple years ago, I worked on a cookbook for about three months in Los Cabos at the one and only Ponia Resort, which was ridiculous. Everyday I was like, “What am I doing here?” I worked with this brilliant chef and this amazing team and, oh my gosh, we were just right on the beach. It was wonderful. That one was a favorite. I worked on a campaign with Delta where we went to Tokyo.

Karin Samelson:
What?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
That was crazy. They were launching this and you know what I don’t even think they do it anymore because of COVID. But they launched a direct flight from Detroit to Tokyo. So they brought me on the inaugural flight to capture the food and the drinks. They had this fancy new first class. So, and then I got to hang out in Tokyo for a week. It was crazy.

Karin Samelson:
Those don’t seem like jobs.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah I think that’s so wild. I was like, “Any minute somebody is going to figure out that they asked the wrong person to come.”

Ashleigh Amoroso:
What else? Let’s see. Oh, when Camille Styles, who’s a local blogger here. Actually, I shouldn’t even call her a blogger. She’s an author, an entertainment guru. She’s totally brilliant. When she signed her campaign with Target, so she’s one of their partners. She brought me with her to LA, which was so fun. I shot that partnership and I’ve done several campaigns with them since, and Camille is just so fun to work with because she completely has a very defined brand. Her team runs like a well-oiled wheel. Everyone has a direction and everybody knows what they’re doing. So I love working with them. I guess, lastly I haven’t really told this one yet because I haven’t been able to. But most recently I’ve been working with Joanna Gaines for her show Magnolia Table and photographing the food and her for that. So I’m really excited to see that.

Alison Smith:
Wow.

Karin Samelson:
That is so exciting. We named a few brands and campaigns and had no idea that those were the peanuts.

Alison Smith:
I know, I’m in the wrong profession. That is amazing. Very cool. I’m from Waco, so Joanna Gaines is my hero.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Shut up, you are? Oh my gosh. Waco is so cute.

Alison Smith:
It’s popping. It was not popping when I lived there. It’s because of Joanna Gaines. It’s totally different, totally transformed.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
They own that town, it is amazing.

Alison Smith:
They literally do. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. That’s amazing. So, one thing we wanted to ask you is, because I do think that, like you were saying, your style is really defined and you come with the dark textures and a lot of shadows that we see a lot and compared to everyone else who’s light and bright constantly. I think it’s really cool to see. So we wanted to ask you, are you trying to evoke emotions or how do you think about what you’re trying to portray when you’re shooting?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So, those images that you’re talking about are really probably, either they’re jobs that I’ve been given complete creative freedom or their personal shoots.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
I just love those because I like to think of when I’m just creating stuff for myself. I like to just make up an entire story in my mind about where the scene is taking place, probably somewhere in the French countryside. There’s this smell, I make up an entire story in my mind.

Alison Smith:
That’s so cool.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
It’s so easy for me to style the scene and to let everything unfold, because I have a really clear snapshot in time of where this is all taking place. So yeah. I want it to be calming, but I also want it to be undefined. I love capturing a moment where it’s easier for you to look at the photo, like someone pouring or moving or whatever, so that it’s easy for you to look at the photo and just be able to envision what’s happening next.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, that’s really awesome. When you say you’re really telling the story of it, and when you said the French countryside. I love Jamie Beck as well, if you knew who that is. It’s all a story. It’s all the French countryside. I feel that way. I’ve always been drawn to your photography as well, where it’s so put together and it’s well thought out and it looks different than the massly produced things we see. So if somebody was trying to do an at home photo shoot, is that kind of the advice you would give them, set the scene, know what’s taken place at the beginning to the end.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Totally. Yeah, totally. I mean, I haven’t really been teaching the workshops as much since COVID, but when I was doing those more frequently, that’s exactly how I would tell my students to set up a scene. I would have them go on Pinterest, create a mood board, essentially walk them through like a client interaction. What is the story you’re trying to tell? Where are you? What does it smell like? What do you see? What do you feel? Clearly define all those things and then everything else just comes in really easily,

Karin Samelson:
Such good advice. That’s awesome. That’s something I’ve never done. It’s just a hobby of photography, so I think really honing in on, what am I trying to do here? Not just, what’s pleasing to my eyeballs. I think that’s awesome.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
That works too.

Karin Samelson:
A little bit more strategy, I can dig it.

Alison Smith:
What are some more, I mean, give us more tips and advice that these small or extra small CPG brands can create better content.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah. So, oh my gosh. I was so scrappy in the beginning. I’ve got lots of these and I actually still use a lot of them because now that I’ve figured out a way to do things in a hack way. Which I don’t know, it’s not always great, but sometimes it’s great. Well, for CPG brands, if they’re wanting to create their own content in the beginning for budget reasons, the best thing they could do, I mean, they’re going to hate me. I’m driving it home, define your style, do some brand colors, find a color palette, create a mission, define your perspective, create a mood board.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Because a lot of people, it’s easier for them to speak visually than it is to explain verbally. I’m sure you guys encounter this all the time too. But when a client comes to me, the first thing we do is work together to create a mood board so that I understand what they want. Because sometimes it’s very different than what they tell me they want. So for the CPG brands, create a mood board based upon what you’re trying to capture and then invest in a few small things. Like the surfaces I would recommend looking at, I mean, Facebook Marketplace is a treasure trove. Don’t be too good for Goodwill. I still find really cool stuff there. Contact paper on Amazon. Seriously, it’s so cheap and you can get stuff that looks very textural and it’s really, really cheap. Let me see, oh and you know what else is a good thing is, I mean, depending on what you’re trying to share. But for food for me, and I still do this, I contact local ceramicist. We work out trades, let me borrow your ceramics for the shoot.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
I’ll provide you imagery that you can use for your social media.

Alison Smith:
What a great idea.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah and work local where you can, build those relationships because those people are in your industry too. So, somebody’s going to come to them. I mean, whoever’s buying from them is in food or looking at food or loves food because they’re spending that kind of money. So then, they’re going to have your name. So, anything in that realm, I would look out for making connections with people who are in that industry, even distantly in the industry and everything is negotiable. Everything can be traded. You don’t have to spend $400 on a surface and then be stuck to that forever. There’s literally the driveway is sometimes really good.

Alison Smith:
Right. That’s such a good tip. The making connections, how cool is that? Then you’re sharing assets and tagging each other and just getting the word out. But I have to ask how important is the camera? Can it be an iPhone?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Totally. Oh my God, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Iphones are freaking amazing now. Honestly, the video capabilities are bananas too, but 100% it could be an iPhone. First of all, no one would ever even have to know, especially now that there’s COVID because you can work with clients without ever meeting them. You can take a really good, high-quality image on an iPhone and make it really beautiful. It’s funny. When I was doing the workshops, I used to show, my students, the photo I would take it on the iPhone. Just so that they knew it’s really not about the camera. It’s everything else.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. That’s great to know.

Karin Samelson:
So when you say everything else, when you’re talking about the composition, is more always better, or how would you advise people setting a scene for the first time?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
I would say, I think people’s biggest mistakes with setting a scene is incorporating things that don’t make sense in the scene. So I’m hesitant to answer about more or less and really just say, make sure it’s relevant to what’s happening in the picture. Don’t have a spatula next to a cupcake or… Well, no, that would make sense, but don’t have olive oil sitting in the picture with your cupcakes. It’s like, “Doesn’t make sense at all.” But it looks pretty so you think… So I see a lot of people making that mistake. So as long as it tells the story or it works for the scene. Yeah, more or less, do it.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah so you started offering courses. So what’s going on with that? Are you still doing it?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Oh my gosh. So yeah, I have a lot of big lofty ideas. I have a friend who is actually going to help me bring these back out this year and we’re going to do them in videos. So now that I have the studio, we’re probably going to start filming that in a couple of months. So, I’ve been doing the in-person or virtual workshops, which is really either one-on-one or in a group setting for a few years. I love doing them, but I was doing them in a way, where they were very tailored to the individual who was attending the workshop. I started to see that that was really just taking up too much time to do it that way. So I needed a general format that could reach a lot more people. So we’re kind of transitioning now into something where it’ll be like an a la carte kind of thing. They can buy whatever, if they want to know about the technical stuff, if they want to know about the business side, if they want to know about styling.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
That way people can come for what they need. Because I’m such a perfectionist and I would want to spend so much time, I’m not spinning my wheels, creating this very specialized course for each person.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
When are those set to launch?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
I would love to know. Let me know.

Alison Smith:
We’ll follow up with that question. That’s a great call. I mean shoot, I would love to learn more about that and take your course.

Karin Samelson:
I know, can I take the course? When we’re talking about the business side too, what can brands, who do have the budget, opening up to hire somebody like you. What can they expect when they hire you on?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
That’s a great question. I would say they should maybe enter with trust.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Good for anybody working with a creative in general. I love that.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
You know what, this is very specific to a brand, who is for the first time able to allocate a budget for something like this, which is going to be expensive. It’s going to feel like a lot of pressure. It’s a big deal. I go into those situations with a very good understanding of that, this is a big deal. Their expectations are huge. So it’s hard for them to enter into the kind of partnership with me, a stranger, not want to micromanage that situation. So what we did was, a lot of people don’t come to me, like I said and to you guys too I’m sure, with like a clear vision. So we essentially speak visually.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
We have them create a mood board if they don’t already have a really clear, defined brand, which I want to clarify, you don’t have to come to me with that. We can get you there. We walk through a process together, where before the day of the shoot, there is zero ambiguity. You know everything that we’re doing, you know what you’re going to get. Everything is very clear and you can kind of sit back and relax. Then what I end up trying to do is over deliver in those situations, because I have a very clear definition of what they’re looking for. So, I know it’s hard, but come in with trust.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. That’s great. Great advice. But when it comes to even the smaller stuff, like if it’s food and beverage brand. Do they need to come in with the supplies and do they need to have a chef with you cooking? How does that look?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So it kind of depends. I have a really awesome team with me now that I’ve worked on several shoots. I’ve got a food stylist. I have a videographer. I have a wonderful chef. Myself and my assistant do a lot of the prop styling just because we enjoy it. But I also have a prop styling partner. So when they come to me, that’s one of the initial questions that we’ll ask without trying to overwhelm them really. But like, “Have you identified a prop situation? Do you have samples? If you’re a new company, are you able to get them? Can you ensure shipping?” We kind of make sure that we run through all of that stuff first. Then if they say no, I send them over information for all of my people and offer to do a full production for them and just take care of everything. So they can be as involved as they want or not, and they can really just sit behind their computer and say, “Yes, no, yes, no.”

Karin Samelson:
One stop shop. That makes it so much easier for brands around the nation to work with you. Especially when they can just fill out that mood board, show you what they are inspired by, what they’re aspiring to be like.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Totally.

Karin Samelson:
It’s great.

Alison Smith:
How difficult is it as a photographer to blend your aesthetic with the client’s aesthetic expectation, et cetera.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So I like this question because a lot of the work that I share is work, that either is emotionally or personally me. However, a lot of the work that I do, I don’t bring that vision in. I have a very defined technical skill. While I do appreciate a certain style of things myself, I only bring them in when they’re necessary. A lot of places, brands contact me for things that are different than what you see on my page. They want the bright. They want the white, they want the cut-out, they want the hard light, they want something totally different. So I want to be a chameleon to be able to do those things because I want to work. So when appropriate, I am make suggestions that I think would work. But sometimes my personal aesthetic doesn’t work for the brand I’m working with. I like the challenge of trying to evoke the message that they’re trying to say.

Alison Smith:
Sure I liked that you said, I mean, you just have to be a chameleon and be a blank slate coming in.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah I think that’s such a good note for business owners. Because a lot of times things that we see with creatives is that they do bring their look and feel and aesthetic, a little bit too much. Where it kind of all looks the same, and you can’t really tell what brand that is because it looks like that brand. So super respectable. So when you think of a consumer packaged good brand, that you would have a dream collaboration with, a dream client who would they be.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Oh my God. Okay. This one is tough because I mean, to be honest, every client that comes to me as a dream client, because it’s another day that I’m working. Every email makes me excited, small company, big company, every single one. So I mean, I feel like I’ve worked with my dream clients. I feel like I am working with my dream clients. Every day I get an email with a new client. It is my dream client.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, that’s amazing. Even if they can’t fly you to Tokyo or Cabo, still a cool client.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Those were exceptional, that’s not realistic.

Karin Samelson:
All I think is you’re photographing on a plane and I’m such a novice. But man, the pressure of it.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Oh my gosh. It was so weird for the people flying. Because they’re like, “What’s this girl doing?” I’m like, “Hi, can you hold your champagne into the light?” They’re like, “Who are you?” I’m like, “I’m going to Tokyo, just come on.”

Karin Samelson:
I want to see these photos. That’s awesome.

Alison Smith:
I know, me too.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
We actually, so they had a whole team that was doing a social media kind of campaign and they ended up creating a whole video. I’ll send it to you guys. So it was really cool.

Karin Samelson:
That’s awesome. I also love how you’ve worked with super and are working with really powerful women in Texas, too. It’s just like, “Wow.”

Ashleigh Amoroso:
That’s your dream come true too. Also commercial photography is only 9% women, which is garbage. I mean, I feel really fortunate to be somehow a part of that. But I mean that industry, those people hiring, those agents, those people with the ability to make those hires really need to be paying attention to the women photographers. There’s just so much talent. It’s crazy. It’s crazy that there are not more women. So whenever I am hired, in specifically a women owned business or women of power position, I’m beside myself. Because that’s what I want to be doing, that’s where I want to be.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. How are you making these connections to these people?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
I don’t know. Okay. So you asked me this earlier and I probably just didn’t answer it, but kind of Instagram. Whenever I left Apple, I started really focusing on the Instagram and this was back in 2015, because it was, at that time and even kind of still now, Instagram is the best way to connect with people about your craft. I mean, before that you had Facebook, but Facebook was more of a personal platform and food photographers before that had books that agents would take around to other agencies and pitch you. So unless you were in New York or LA, who’s going to see your food photography, hence the rise of Instagram.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
So then what happened was people realized that they could find talent in other places other than New York and LA. They could find new talent, talent that didn’t have to operate on a $30,000 budget. So that just kind of opened a ton of doors. I think what happened was I got put on a bunch of agency rosters and if I’m not with the agency, they’ll recommend me either for local reasons or because someone has worked with me before. I think that’s how a lot of stuff comes to me to be honest.

Karin Samelson:
That’s awesome. Yeah. I mean, that’s how I was led to you. I have been, fan girl moment. I’ve been following you for a very, very long time. I end up unfollowing a ton of people. I don’t do a lot of personal social because my job is social. I want to be on it as little as possible. So I would absolutely follow Ashleigh. She has two really amazing accounts and I think it does tell a story, the way you post, the way you do everything on social.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Oh thanks.

Karin Samelson:
So I think that’s wonderful. Yeah and speaking of that, you just bought, you just started renting a studio space downtown, tell us about it.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah so I just leased a studio space downtown, it’s on Eighth and Congress, which is even weird to say. This was a dream that I just, I don’t know. I never really saw coming to fruition because I just didn’t see it as feasible. But the stars aligned and it worked out and with Claire Brody Designs, she’s like a vintage dealer. She’s an interior designer, moved to vintage dealer. She’s on the bottom floor and then in another room is Jenna McElroy, Who’s also a photographer, but she does more personal branding and family’s portraits, that kind of thing. And then me. So we’re all in the building together. We’ve literally only had the keys for two weeks and we’re all renovating the place. So it’s my goal to put in a modular kitchen, because I try to rent food photography studios all the time.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
There’s always just a missing element or it’s an Airbnb that wants this crazy permit or there’s just some complicated element. It’s difficult to find a fully functional food photography kitchen that has the offerings of a photography studio. So, I’m going to make everything that I’m missing. I have lots of grand lofty ideas here, but the ultimate goal is for me to start doing all of my shoots out of there. Then to also rent it out to other kitchen creatives, to either do shoots or film or whatever they want to do in that space as well.

Alison Smith:
How freaking cool. Is there a name for it or is it Ashleigh Amoroso?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yeah, it’s just Ashleigh Amoroso Studios right now.

Karin Samelson:
But yeah, I love it. So cool. I mean, we hope to rent it out from you one day because that really is such a pain point. I feel like, it’s finding the space, finding a really beautiful space where you can do everything. So Austin Brands, someday, rent this spot out for your photo shoots.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Yay and then we’ll work together.

Alison Smith:
Well, this was really fun. Ashleigh, do you want to leave our listeners with how they can find you? Is it your Instagram or any anywhere else?

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Sure yeah. My Instagram, I have two there’s my personal one, which is Ashleigh Amoroso, which is spelled A S H L E I G H. I know, but I like it. That’s my food one and then my personal one is Ashamor, A S H A M O R. Then all the stuff is linked in those places. Instagram’s fun. That’s where I’m probably the most active.

Karin Samelson:
Awesome and you’re available for hire. So hit her up, if you need a photographer.

Ashleigh Amoroso:
Come get me.

Narrator:
Ooh, my social circle is a CPG agency driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram at UMAI marketing or check out our website umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #17: Amplify Snack Brands’ Sr. Supply Chain Planner Explains Big-Picture Inventory Strategy

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods, business owners and marketing professionals, does planning content ahead of time stress you out?

Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads, but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our Mini Course was made for you.

It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. So join in, visit our website at umaimarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Alison Smith:
Welcome to the UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Karin and Alison co-founders of UMAI and we’re being joined by Ellen Wilson, Senior Supply Planner at Amplify Snack Brands. Thanks for joining us, Ellen.

Ellen Wilson:
Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Alison Smith:
Yes. And Ellen is a dear, dear friend. She’s not just a really amazing supply planner for CPG at Amplify Snack Brands, she is a dear friend, so we’re really lucky to have you and we’re excited.

So let’s start with just your background, did you always have an interest in working in operations or in CPG? How’d you get here, working for Amplify Snack Brands?

Ellen Wilson:
Really randomly to be honest. I was working at a marketing studio I went to school for marketing and we just had a friend Charlotte Taylor, who was doing recruiting, at the time was working at a recruiting firm and she had a random job for a customer service role at a growing CPG company. And, I was ready for a change from my current job and so I took a chance and five years later here I am at Amplify Snack Brands.

Alison Smith:
I completely forgot that you were hired as a customer service person.

Ellen Wilson:
Yes. So it was just a random customer service representative and it turned out to be better than I thought because the customer service, it wasn’t like consumer-facing, it was like Target and Kroger and those were my customers so it was almost like a fulfillment logistics role more than it was customer service.

So, it ended up being even better than I thought it would be going into it.

Karin Samelson:
And, then it naturally progressed into planning or did you end up that job and you’re like that’s me right there?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. So, it was super random. I had just gotten over being in customer service, I just wanted to do something more and what was so great about Amplify Snack Brands at the time, it was still such a small company that if you wanted to try something else, it was just really easy to do so.

So, the role for the supply planner at Amplify Snack Brands opened up and I just was either going to leave Amplify Snack Brands or wanted to do something else.

So, I got the chance to try it and it really just clicked for me and it’s been such a good fit for me and it’s something I would’ve never even thought to try before being at Amplify Snack Brands.

So, it’s really just fun how that was so random, but it’s been such a wonderful fit for me and how my brain works.

Alison Smith:
So, how your brain works? What traits would you say that people should have if they want to have a career in this?

Ellen Wilson:
Very logistical? So, I think of it as a giant puzzle that I’m putting together every single week at Amplify Snack Brands.

So, I just take all of our Amplify Snack Brands products, all of our commands, I’m scheduling six different commands every single week and there’s just tons of different inputs that I’m taking every single week and having to say what I need them to make in their specifications of what I can run each week.

Ellen Wilson:
So, it’s just a giant puzzle that you’re always having to figure out and that’s fun for me, I don’t think that’s fun for everyone, but for me that is really gratifying and when I can get it there it feels really good. I would say it keeps you on your toes every single week, especially with such a growing company.

What I planned last week isn’t necessarily what’s needed this week, so that I’m having to go back and say, “Okay, I said 5,000 this week, but now I need 10,000 because it’s much bigger than I thought.”

Ellen Wilson:
So, definitely thinking logistically, willing to… I’m looking at my planner right now, it’s always on my brain. Just willing to pivot quickly to figure something out, find creative solutions for something that might not be going well is really a lot of my job.

Karin Samelson:
Like, an organized problem solver.

Ellen Wilson:
Exactly. Yeah. Something like that.

Karin Samelson:
I think organization skills. I think that might be a must based on that explanation.

Alison Smith:
And, someone who loves spreadsheets as well.

Ellen Wilson:
In my arms, like my baby.

Karin Samelson:
You must love Excel. Oh, Gosh. Okay.

Ellen Wilson:
Absolutely. And, that’s what’s also been so fun.

It was like, I didn’t have a ton of Excel skills before I came into this role at Amplify Snack Brands and it was just something where I got pushed into it and would have to be like on Google every day being like, “How to do this and how to do that.”

But, I have learned so much and this is such a nerdy thing to say, but Excel is amazing and you can do so much and I feel like I’ve just even scratched the surface of what you can do.

So, for anybody starting out, it’s doing any kind of inventory, planning, forecasting, anything like Excel is where it’s at 100%.

Karin Samelson:
Wow. That’s the nerdiest thing I’ve ever heard you Ellen.

Ellen Wilson:
I was embarrassed to admit that for a while, but I’ve gotten to the point where like, I am who I am and I love it so.

Karin Samelson:
I love it. I really do. Well, let’s backtrack a little bit and tell us more about Amplify Snack Brands. So it’s the umbrella company for a lot of CPG brands. So, what are those?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah, so SkinnyPop is like Numero Uno that’s what it started with and then now we have Pirate’s Booty, which is puff for children. Yeah. For children. It’s for everybody.

Alison Smith:
It’s for children [crosstalk 00:06:24]?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, I didn’t know that.

Ellen Wilson:
It’s a children’s brand, but-

Alison Smith:
I did not know that.

Ellen Wilson:
Is it? I don’t think so. Yeah. It’s for everyone. And, then we have Paqui Tortilla Chips which is kind of a better for you Dorito lime and Oatmega Protein Bars.

Karin Samelson:
Wow. So, you’re working on planning at Amplify Snack Brands for all of those brands? Are you-

Ellen Wilson:
No, right now I’m just doing SkinnyPop for Amplify Snack Brands.

I have worked on all of them in my years at Amplify Snack Brands, which has been interesting because they’re all so different with such different requirements and planning cycles and everything but right now I’m doing the big dogs SkinnyPop.

Alison Smith:
Big dog.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
So, walk us through your day to day. I have never been in operations. It’s kind of confusing to the people that are doing it right now for their own businesses. On daily basis, what do you do as a senior supply planner at Amplify Snack Brands?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. So, I’ll go through my weekly buckets, because its like the same process every week. So every week I’m taking a new set of our open sales orders, open work orders, open transfer orders, forecast, inventory at all of our warehouses.

And, I’m putting that into a model that we’ve built. Everything’s in Excel which is wild for doing this when you’re big planning manufacturers.

So, I put all of that into a model for each manufacture that I’m planning for and I’m basically finding what I need to make in my next open production slot.

Ellen Wilson:
So, that’s the main core of my job is making those production plans for all of our commands, but also anytime I see something that’s off on an item or inventory or something, I have to go figure that out.

And, I’m talking to demand planning all week long, I’m talking to our transportation team all week long to figure out where my inventory is, I’m talking to our deployment team to say like, “Hey, your rush order on this.

You need to get it to this place.” I’m talking to our customer service team, they’re asking, “Where’s this product? Can we get sooner? Can we get it and this too instead of this?”

Ellen Wilson:
So, I’m talking to everyone in operations because everything changes so quickly all the time especially with such a growth-based company. If we get an opportunity to do something, it’s not like, that’s not in the four week block window of forecast. You need to push that out. It’s like, what can we do to make it happen?

Ellen Wilson:
So, there’s just fires, there’s opportunities, there’s just situations, shut down the manufacturers, everything like that I’m just having to deal with every single week. That sounds negative, but you have to do it.

And, then there’s just lots of weekly meetings about everything going on. So my main job really is to make those production plans, but I would say 50/50 making the production plans from a base set of data and then going and tweaking for exceptions and fires and situations that come about.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. So, that’s so interesting. And the projection part rattles my brain in a lot of different ways. And so you’re talking about base data. So, you’re more established company now, but how does a small brand go about figuring out those projections without that base data?

Ellen Wilson:
It’s still hard without base data. So, a forecast for us is like, Bible for us. Without a forecast, I can’t do anything. I can react to what’s in our open sales orders but other than that, I have no idea what to make in the future.

Alison Smith:
And, that’s like if you were only focusing on that, you’d be a step behind all the time.

Ellen Wilson:
I’d be late. Nothing would get anywhere on time. So, especially being a more established brand, I’m having to lock things out weeks in advance. So, I’m having to predict the future based on the forecast, which is a production of that nature.

So, I would say someone who is just starting out that doesn’t have a robust forecasting system, anything like that, having a really close relationship with whoever is doing your sales is so key because they’re going to be the only people that can help you with that.

Yet, they’re going to be able to tell you what they’re trying to sell, what they are selling, what’s expected. So that is just like, I would say the most important thing is to just have that really close relationship and constant communication with them.

Ellen Wilson:
Another thing is just to really watch consumer trends in your sector. So like for popcorn, we’re always watching our competitors, we’re watching just the buying habits, but it really is just trying to predict the future more than anything. And, a lot of it relies on us building safety stock.

So, I’m building the amount that we’re saying we need in two weeks, but I’m also building a couple of weeks buffer so if that doesn’t happen, I’ve got something to play with.

Ellen Wilson:
So, finding that amount of safety stock that is going to cover bumps in the road, but not be too much that you’re just like holding products you don’t need, or like is going to go expired before you can sell it or whatnot.

That’s that sweet spot of being prepared for the bumps in the road, being prepared for what’s going to happen, but not just building inventory you don’t need all this.

Karin Samelson:
Let’s talk about safety stock. I really liked that. Is there a certain percentage that a brand should keep in the back?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. So for me, I base it off of… So there’s the full shelf life of your product. That’s from production to when you shouldn’t eat it anymore. And, then pretty much, I wouldn’t say probably all, I don’t know for sure, but I’m assuming all brands with an expiration also have a sellable shelf life.

So, we have a portion of our full shelf life that we can still ship to customers so that they can guarantee they get the product with enough time to sell it on their shelves.

For me, I take that sellable product window and I do enough that like, so for instance, if it’s eight weeks, I won’t produce more than four to five weeks of stock at a time.

Ellen Wilson:
If I produce anything close to eight weeks, there’s the opportunity that we won’t get the forecast and then it’s just, we’re throwing it away or selling it in distress where we don’t get the margin.

And, I’m trying to build four to five at the most so that I can have enough to cover a few weeks if something comes in double the forecast that week, I’ve got it, but it’s not so much that we’re paying storage fees for it. We’re potentially just throwing it away because I’ve made too much.

So, it’s just that sweet spot where you feel comfortable with the weeks of supply. That’s how I judge everything, it’s like weeks of supply. And, finding that weeks of supply that makes you feel comfortable that you have a buffer, but that you can also get through it before it goes short dated.

Karin Samelson:
Gosh, I-

Ellen Wilson:
[crosstalk 00:13:40].

Karin Samelson:
It seems pretty stressful to handle all this. It’s a lot.

Ellen Wilson:
Operations is not for the lighthearted.

Karin Samelson:
Right. Yes.

Ellen Wilson:
It’s a very stressful job. I like it and it’s busy all the time and I always have something to do but there are there’s some days-

Karin Samelson:
Like throwing away product, that would be so difficult. Yeah.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. And, it’s funny because two of my biggest schools are Caseyville, which is making sure our orders get fulfilled a certain percent and then waste, they’re making sure about waste, but it is small.

So, I’m truly having to find that middle ground where I can build enough to service everything, but not throw it away.

Alison Smith:
So interesting and so for a big company, like SkinnyPop, you’re doing like 50% in that anticipation and maintaining your supply levels?

Ellen Wilson:
Yes. Four weeks is really like, I would say the sweet spot for us but another thing you have to think about is with a huge company, always having four weeks of supply is a lot of storage and just tons of pallets.

I think it’s like 50,000 pallets if I were to get up to four weeks of supply.

So, you have to also understand your budget for warehousing and make sure that you found a warehouse that you can hold all of that and then if I am getting up to four and we’re just busting at the scene, then that throws everything off where I can’t produce what I need to produce in a month of trying to fix that and trickle that down and like fix it. So it’s a giant puzzle.

Alison Smith:
Puzzling, every day.

Ellen Wilson:
Every day.

Alison Smith:
Cool. So, let’s talk a little bit about the acquisition. So, hot topic. So in late 2017, Hershey acquired Amplify Snack Brands, you were there you’ve been there for so long for a whopping $1.6 billion. $1.6 billion.

That is nuts and you were there and you are there now. How has your job changed from working for this small company where you were thinking, I was just going to be customer service, to now with this being owned by Hershey?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. The company itself has changed dramatically. I would say my job of planning is not that different because we’re still doing it in Excel and we still, for the most part, have the same manufacturers that we were using before.

So as far as my day to day, it hasn’t changed dramatically but our company as a whole has changed so much.

Ellen Wilson:
Before the acquisition, during the acquisition, right after the acquisition, we went through a ton of like ELT leaders. It was just like in and out, in and out, in and out and part of that comes with-

Karin Samelson:
What is ELT, Ellen?

Ellen Wilson:
Executive leadership team. So like the C-level people.

Karin Samelson:
Got you.

Ellen Wilson:
And, really like VPs and directors as well. So a lot of that is to be expected when you’re at first going public you just get a bunch of money and you move on.

That’s just what some people do and then with the acquisition that also happen. A lot of people had stock, they got paid out, they’re just like, “Okay, that’s all I needed from it.”

Ellen Wilson:
So, since Hershey has acquired us and we’ve really gotten into being with Hershey, it has been much more stable in that sense, which has been such a good thing for us.

We got some people that worked at Hershey for 15 to 20 years to come over and be in that team and it’s just provided us a lot of stability that things aren’t just drastically changing and our strategy year to year, isn’t just a fully different strategy because we have a new CEO or a new president or a new CFO.

Ellen Wilson:
So, I think that has been extremely helpful for us to just get that stability that we needed to go to the next level and we also just have a lot more resources to do things with, which is helpful.

We’ve got Hershey backing us for procurement and contracts and we can use that Hershey muscle to really help us get to that next level.

Alison Smith:
And you have chocolate in your office now?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Three chocolate bars for life.

Ellen Wilson:
There was constant candy bowls which was a lot of fun.

Karin Samelson:
But you still maintain the small brand feel and all of the outward facing is the same?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. We definitely are part of Hershey, but we’re also still very much Amplify Snack Brands, so we do our own thing, we’re tied to them, we report to them and we use them when we need to, but it’s not something where everything we do is the same thing as Hershey. It’s nice to keep that.

Ellen Wilson:
We can do little parties with ourselves and we can do decision-making on our own, we don’t have to always call Hershey and be like, “Hey, can I do this?”

So, I think it’s been the best of both worlds where we get what we need from a big company, but it’s not… We’re not just like this big corporation now.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Wow. That sounds like a great acquisitions.

Ellen Wilson:
And Hershey, it’s a really good company. They do a ton of philanthropy, they’re really great people who award, really caring about the people, like when we were acquired Michelle Buck, our CEO came and had lunch with a group of us.

It’s one of those where it’s a large corporation, but it doesn’t feel like I’m just this little minion and a huge corporation. They’re good at people which is surprising sometimes.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Very cool. Well, so what are some maybe tools or some tips from you that smaller CPG brands who don’t have this full operations team, how can they get better at planning and supply chain?

Ellen Wilson:
I think I talked about it earlier, but Excel, Excel, Excel.

Karin Samelson:
Know Excel, okay.

Ellen Wilson:
Know Excel. There’s tons of resources to like take classes, learn more, dive deeper into it until… We’re still doing all of our planning out of Excel, that’s four brands, 15 commands just doing all of that in Excel and like fairly accurate.

There can be things that are helpful with the system, but for the most part it’s worked just fine and until last summer we were doing all of our forecasting out of Excel.

Ellen Wilson:
So, where a company that doesn’t want to invest in some kind of system early on you can do everything in Excel. So, just diving into that. As far as like other resources, I don’t know as much because I was lucky to come into an already established system.

So, we just had resources, fellow employees and coworkers and stuff so I don’t know of other resources but Excel.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, know Excel.

Karin Samelson:
And know your numbers and put them in Excel.

Ellen Wilson:
Exactly.

Alison Smith:
So, what’s common, since you see what’s happening with SkinnyPop and Pirate’s Booty and Oatmega and Paqui, what are some common issues that you see all of these brands running into and how can you avoid that in the operations?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. So, one of them that even we have struggled with is being prepared for growth. Any small CPG, that’s your goal. You want to grow, you want to get bigger, you want to maybe be acquired someday or go public.

So, being able to hit go when you need to and have that plan already prepared, I think is something that we aren’t necessarily always ready for and it’s probably something that happens to a lot of companies faster than they think.

Ellen Wilson:
So, I would say having that plan when you don’t need it is so critical, it takes a really long time to set up manufacturers. It takes a really long time to set up a new warehouse.

Things take a lot of time so if you are starting that process, when you’re starting to see that bubble burst, you’re going to be screwed for a long time. So, just being prepared for that and being able to jump into it, I think is something that a lot of brands don’t do soon enough.

Ellen Wilson:
Another one is being strategic about who you are selling into. It’s so tempting to say like, “Oh, Walmart, Target, Club that’s where I want to be.” And, you do want to be there when you’re ready. Club is huge.

If you get into Costco and BJ’s or Sam’s your inventory and your demand is going to skyrocket and again, if you’re not prepared for that, you could ruin your relationship with those brands and not have another chance for a while.

Ellen Wilson:
Or Walmart and Target if you are a very high end unique niche product being in Target and Walmart might not be a good idea for you, at least in the beginning, because they’re going to get in there and no one’s going to buy your product and then it’s going to be like, fail.

Maybe you need to start with the natural channel and really focus on that versus just the allure of being in a big-box store. I think those two are probably the biggest that I’ve personally experienced.

Alison Smith:
That’s such a good note about the big-box store. We’ve heard the same from our friend Mark Nathan having the same sentiment.

Ellen Wilson:
We had a Kettle Chips brand that we scored a big deal with Walmart and that was like, it was going to be Walmart exclusive for a little bit and it just did not sell. And for me that makes sense.

You go to Walmart, you’re not going to try the new hot thing, you’re going for your staples and you’re going for good prices. So seeing a luxury potato chip brand for sometimes triple the price of another bag, I wouldn’t buy it, that’s not what I’m there for and we don’t have that brand anymore.

Ellen Wilson:
So, it really is a testament to you have to put it in, in the right places especially when you’re starting off.

And, once you have customers and you have people that know who you are, that’s when you can go in and you’re prepared for that but starting out at those big-box stores just can be a tough load sometimes.

And, they’re high maintenance. You have to be ready to pivot to what they want from you versus you being like, “This is what I want to sell.”

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. That’s so interesting because it’s just the allure of it is just like, “Yes, I want to be in Walmart.” [crosstalk 00:24:49] Everyone’s there, but it’s really interesting.

Ellen Wilson:
Whole new ball game once you’re there.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Earlier you talked about having waste from product, is there anything that you’re seeing that brands are able to do with that waste or any other new trends in your industry?

Ellen Wilson:
So, what we do is, every month we go through a distressed sales process so we take all of our inventory, we take the lock codes and the expiration dates, anything that we know is past that shippable window to customers, we sell it to the distress channel.

So, we have a few customers that just purely buy distressed product from us. So they’re fine with taking it a little short dated because it’s still good.

And things like, the stuff that you see at TJ Maxx, Grocery Outlet is our main on, I think they have actual stores and I don’t think they have them in Texas, but there’s like actual stories that just sell our distressed product, which [crosstalk 00:25:49] it’s not bad. It’s just not to be long shelf life that a Target, Kroger Tom Thumb would require in order to put on their shelves.

Ellen Wilson:
So, that’s what we do with a lot of it and then once it goes past, even the shelf life that a distressed customer will take it out, we will try to donate it to different companies that will take it, like Feed the Children is one that we send a lot of products to and then we’ve even donated to like pig farmers, they’ll take popcorn and some of our brands and just put it in their pig food.

Alison Smith:
That’s exactly what we did at vital farms.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. So, for the most part, we get through a lot of it. We do end up just destroying some of it. Stuff like our spicy chips, those aren’t going to go to children and those aren’t going to go to pigs.

So, sometimes we just don’t have a home for them, but we try like multiple steps to just get it to someone that will use it before we can trash it.

Karin Samelson:
Very cool. I always wondered like shopping at Marshall’s and TJ Max, like all the foods, they’re always like really delicious, I’m like, why are you here?

Ellen Wilson:
I know, that was such an eye opener for me because I thought the same thing. I was like, “Well, I’m not going to buy it, it’s bad.” But then I realized it’s not bad. It’s just like slightly shorter than-

Alison Smith:
[crosstalk 00:27:15]. Its’ distressed.

Ellen Wilson:
Perfectly good stuff.

Karin Samelson:
Any other trends happening with Amplify Snack Brands or just in operations?

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. Just with like SkinnyPop, well I guess SkinnyPop and Pirate’s Booty probably for the most part in the last couple of years, multi-packs have blown up. So the smaller 100 carrier, just smaller bags within a pouch or a box, those have blown up in the last few years.

And it makes sense, you have kids, you’re going to work, you just grab a bag instead of having to use your own plastic bag. But that is actually a lot harder functionally to make in a manufacturing plant versus just a big bag.

Because with a big bag, you’re sealing less often, you’re using less films, you’re just making one bag versus a ton, it’s less people because you’re not having to put a bag inside a bag and then seal that bag.

Ellen Wilson:
So, that has been something that we have had to adjust so dramatically because we have to figure out, how do we get our manufacturers to be able to make more?

How do we get it out faster? How do we get it out in 15 different packouts, 15 different flavors? Whereas before a lot of our manufacturing plants were set up for big bags, mainly big bags with a little small bags.

So, that’s been a trend that we are still to be honest, struggling to keep up with it because it’s new flavor, new variety, new packout, we have a 16 count, now we want a 30 count, so it’s just like constantly, that’s what everybody wants.

Ellen Wilson:
But what’s actually funny with COVID, the last year when everything started to shut down and everyone was rushing to the grocery stores and even news outlets were saying, “These are the items to buy.”

SkinnyPop was luckily one of them, but it was this giant flip back to big bags. So we were like, “We got it. All the small bags multi-packs got it, got it, got it.” And all of a sudden it was like, “Nope, nobody wants that anymore.

No one’s going to school, no buying of that. I want big bags again.”

Ellen Wilson:
So, there’s one item that we sell on Club stores that I make every single week no matter what. Always being produced at multiple facilities and I had to actually shut that down for like a month because just no one was buying them.

So, it’s just funny how life really does affect the market and you have to pay such close attention to buying habits and time of year, like summers are so hard for us because everyone’s purchasing back to school stuff and there’s back to school sales and all this stuff. Just watching the trends over the year, what’s happening and life really affects what’s happening in manufacturing.

Alison Smith:
Do you even know where your forecasters track those consumer trends other than just your sales?

Ellen Wilson:
So we have a whole department, it’s like five people, it’s not 50, but we have a department that…

Can’t think of what their titles are, they’re part of the sales team but they track consumer trends and they are giving that influence to our actual sales team just on what’s happening in competitors in the world.

Just the trends that are happening. So, there’s that piece and then we do have a pretty robust forecasting system now, so it reads seasonality, it reads our years of passive data and then that plus having weekly, sometimes biweekly conversations with our sales team, that’s where that information comes together for our forecast.

Karin Samelson:
Was anyone on your team able to foresee that? People are hunkered down or that was a total-

Ellen Wilson:
It caught us all by surprise. We were having literally daily meetings in the beginning at 5:00 PM to discuss what was happening and what we were going to do tomorrow.

And, especially with COVID, some of our plants just shut down because people got COVID and once someone in the plant is, they all had to be out because they’re working close to each other.

So, it took us all by surprise. And I think last March was the most sales we had ever had in the history of Amplify Snack Brands because everyone was just running to the grocery store to get stuff. So it was a wild couple of weeks there.

Alison Smith:
What a trip.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
What a trip.

Alison Smith:
Okay. Ellen, well nuggets. So pretty much, if you want to really, really dig into supply chain operations, you got to be organized, you got to be good at communicating with a whole lot of people, you got to be flexible, right? It’s just like-

Ellen Wilson:
Absolutely.

Alison Smith:
Nothing is set in stone.

Ellen Wilson:
Nothing. And it’s funny because we’ll have calls about promos coming up, like with Costco, they have what they call MDMs. You get in the mailers once a month and when you are part of one of those mailers you have a coupon, your volume skyrocket.

So, it’s a huge deal to be a part of that but it’s also like you’re watching that like your little baby, just making sure the MDM goes well.

Ellen Wilson:
And so we’ll have meetings every week on how it’s going and I’ll just be like, “At this very moment in time it’s okay.” And people laugh at us at work because that’s a lot of what operations says is like, you’re asking me at 11:52 on a Tuesday. Yes, it’s okay. If you ask me in an hour, it might not be okay.

Alison Smith:
Oh my gosh.

Ellen Wilson:
It’s just one of those things that it changes minute to minute because if something happened and there’s like a fire at a plant and that goes down, you can be screwed for weeks on your inventory because it’s just gone so wild.

Alison Smith:
Wow. Sounds like a great time but for real, you’re making it happen. You are literally getting this product on the shelf for us purchase.

Ellen Wilson:
It was fun when my family or friends send me a photo of a bag or something I’m like, I made that for you.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I made it.

Ellen Wilson:
It is very gratifying and especially we track our case file every single week. So if I get like a good case file the week prior, that is again very nerdy, very gratifying for me because I did that and I got it there and I succeeded at that puzzle I was trying to figure out.

Alison Smith:
Puzzle. I love it. Awesome, Ellen. Well, thanks for coming on and talking with us. Would you like to leave the audience with like a link or call to action or a final statement? Go but SkinnyPop.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah, go buy a SkinnyPop, go buy a Pirate’s Booty, go buy Paqui. Paqui is like very underrated I would say.

Karin Samelson:
I love Paqui.

Ellen Wilson:
It’s better for you. Dorito has all real clean ingredients. I think those people sleep on a lot, but they’re delicious.

Karin Samelson:
Go buy them, take a photo, send it to us, we’ll send it to Ellen, she’ll feel great about that week of operation.

Ellen Wilson:
Yeah. Exactly.

Alison Smith:
We did it. Awesome. Thanks Ellen.

Ellen Wilson:
Thanks.

Karin Samelson:
Thank you, Ellen.

Narrator:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas.

We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders or whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram @umaimarketing or check out our website, umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #16: Surviving to Thriving on Grocery Shelves with Alli Ball, Creator of Retail Ready®

[AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT MAY BE SUBJECT TO MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS/VARIATIONS]

Karin Samelson:
Calling all consumer goods, business owners and marketing professionals, does planning content ahead of time stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you. It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in, visit our website at umaimarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Karin Samelson:
Welcome to UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods, marketing tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Karin and Alison, cofounders of UMAI. And we’re being joined by Allison Ball or Alli for short. She helps CPG retail brands launch products, get on the retail shelf, increase sales, streamline sale systems. She is the food biz wiz. Thank you for joining us, Alli.

Alli Ball:
Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to hang out with you ladies.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Well, let’s get into it. So, we’re going to start a little diving into your background. Can you tell us a little bit more about your time as a grocery buyer, how it all got started?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I was a grocery buyer for a long time here in San Francisco at Bi-Rite Market on 18th Street back when it was a single location. It was a 3,000 square foot specialty store. And my role was to figure out what the heck we were going to put on our shelves and how we were going to have high sales once I put them there. And so, I was in charge of a lot of different categories. But typically, within the grocery department. So, things like coffee, chocolate, confections, dairy, refrigerated beverage, bread, snacks.

Alli Ball:
I mean, you name it, I think all the good things of the store. And Bi-Rite was this really… is still is, this really special place that has a unique product assortment. So, oftentimes, the CPG retail brands that I was working with were brand-new to the food and beverage industry. Bi-Rite was their holy grail. And oftentimes, we were the first wholesale account for lots of CPG retail brands. And in that, like you guys can imagine, a lot of CPG retail brands did not know what they were doing.

Alli Ball:
So, my job was to help them figure out how to not only succeed on our shelves but how to succeed in the world of wholesale out in the wild, being on the shelves that Bi-Rite was not going to sustain them in their business. So, we did that for a long time, and I absolutely loved it. It was really, really wonderful to have that almost in-house consulting role for Bi-Rite. They don’t do that anymore. They don’t have the capacity anymore, but it was a really special time. And then, my role shifted.

Alli Ball:
We decided to open Bi-Rite Divisadero, which was across town. And I became focused on being head of grocery and the retail store manager of that location. So, I focused solely on the profit and loss of the grocery department and making sure that we were making money, that we were a profitable department. And so, in that, I was down in spreadsheets all day long. And while it was really, really valuable, I really missed working directly with producers.

Alli Ball:
So, I left Bi-Rite about seven years ago and started my consulting business, focused on helping producers understand how to get on the retail shelf, and how to sell through once they do.

Karin Samelson:
Awesome.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I definitely want to dive more into that consulting. But first of all, I would love to know more like how did you choose the products that you decided to bring into Bi-Rite? Like maybe three things that you look for?

Alli Ball:
Yeah. Oh, that’s such a good question. I feel like no one’s asked me that in a really long time. I think the biggest thing is figuring out, and there are lots of ways to do this, but figuring out, if I take a chance on this product, is it going to help me achieve my category goals as a buyer? So, as a buyer, we’re always looking at our sales numbers. We’re always looking at our profit margins. And we want to make sure that every single product that we put on the retail shelf does its job, right?

Alli Ball:
Which is either to bring higher sales or bring more margin to the category. Sometimes, there are other initiatives within a grocery department. But in general, that’s what it is like, is this product going to help me meet my goals as a buyer? And so, a product might sell through because of a really strong CPG retail brands. They might sell through because of a community connection that they have. Again, that’s in CPG retail branding, but a community place. They might sell through because it’s really, really delicious.

Alli Ball:
Although, that’s not usually why it’s selling. So, yeah. Typically, the number one question is whether or not it’s going to help me as a buyer, hit my category goals.

Alison Smith:
That’s very cool. And I love that you mentioned strong CPG retail branding. I think we see that a lot that that maybe gets overlooked, and without trialing the product, like you said, is it delicious? How do you know until you buy it? The CPG retail brands is what makes someone draws their eye and what makes them pull it off the shelf, a lot of times.

Alli Ball:
Totally. And let me just say this about the deliciousness too, right? That when I was a buyer and I would get these wholesale pitches that would be like, “Oh, Alli, you’ve got to try my cold pressed juice. It’s so delicious.” Over the phone, I’d be rolling my eyes. And I’m like, “Yeah, sure,” like you and every other juice CPG retail brands that pitched to me this week. If you are not in the business of thinking that your product is delicious, then you’re in the wrong business, right?

Alli Ball:
Deliciousness, tasty products are the baseline here. And so, you’ve got to figure out some other reason to attract that buyer’s attention. And so, with my clients, we really focus on this, like what is the reason that the buyer is going to say, yes, that has nothing to do with the taste of your product? Because taste is the baseline, and taste is subjective. So, those are not the ways to pitch to a buyer.

Alison Smith:
I love that. Absolutely.

Karin Samelson:
Can you tell us a little bit more about how that pivoted into the role of consulting?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, sure. So, when I was at Bi-Rite… I’m holding my heart here. I was heartbroken to see these CPG retail brands, these really values-oriented CPG retail brands, or frankly, really delicious CPG retail brands or really thoughtful CPG retail brands, not work on our shelves. And it wasn’t because the founder wasn’t passionate or the founder… I was going to say didn’t know what they’re doing, but that was one of the reasons. And I was like, “I have to, if I want to make an impact in this industry, I have to be the person who pulls the curtain back on what the heck goes on inside the brains of a wholesale buyer and how CPG retail brands can shift their pitches, shift their positioning, to actually stand out in that sea of thousands of pitches that that buyer may receive.”

Alli Ball:
So, that really was the motivation, Karin, but I knew that if I wanted to impact our industry, that was the way to do it, to help on the CPG retail brands side.

Karin Samelson:
That’s such a good opportunity. You were at such a specialty store that it’s your exact demographic. You have to totally experience to have that, like not a lot of people are going to have.

Alli Ball:
Totally, and it’s also two things there. First off, it’s really hard to capture the attention, to hold the attention of a grocery buyer. I say grocery but any buyer, right? Produce buyer, meat buyer, frozen buyer, whatever. Buyers are busy, and they don’t have the time of day to go back and forth and back and forth with CPG retail brands. And so, knowing that, it’s really hard to get the buyer’s ear, and it’s really hard to get the buyers to talk. And so, I was like, “If I can be that buyer who is public-facing, then I can do everyone a favor.”

Alli Ball:
So, that was one thing. And then, two, when I left Bi-Rite, for the first few years of my consulting, I actually worked with retail stores across the United States, helping train their buying teams and helping train with category reviews, and product assortment, and grocery teams, and merchandising and things like that. It was really neat to take my experience at Bi-Rite and apply it to retail stores across the country, and realize that we did some things really well at Bi-Rite.

Alli Ball:
And we did other things that… or we did things where we could have improved based on the learnings that I had from other retail stores. And all in, it really allowed me to feel very confident helping the CPG retail brands clients that I had as I saw these universal patterns in retail stores around the country.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, very cool. I mean, being the buyer to grocery store, one of my fondest memories of going to conventions, like food conventions and Expo West was I would memorize the buyer’s names and their photos. I wanted to prove that I was of worth with these conventions. I would just be on the lookout and just be elbowing people when they came down. So, it is. It’s hard to get in front of these buyers.

Alli Ball:
Totally. I mean, when we used to walk the show, the floor at fancy food… and this is way back when. This is like, I don’t know, 2009. And maybe it was my first fancy food. And I remember [Raph 00:09:32], the head buyer with me, was like, “Oh Alli, everybody wants to get in Bi-Rite. You should hide your badge. Flip it over or scratch out Bi-Rite, or do something to hide your identity.” I was like, “Oh my God.” It seems so extreme. But it’s like, yeah, you meet thousands of people over that weekend.

Alli Ball:
You don’t have the capacity to follow up on all those leads. So, yeah. There is a mystery of the grocery buyer, right?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, there’s just this aura that surrounds you.

Alli Ball:
Yeah, totally. Totally, yeah.

Alison Smith:
Well, that’s awesome. So, next for you after consulting was your course, Retail Ready. So, how did you come up with, okay, was it just like there was not enough of you and you had to put it down to reach more people? How did you come up with the course, I guess?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, that was definitely part of it, but when I had… I was a few years into consulting with CPG retail brands, and I realized two things. One, most CPG retail brands, most young CPG retail brands were getting stuck at the same areas in their growth, right? They were making the same problem, challenges, like having the same challenges early on in their growth. And they all felt like they were alone, and they were the only ones struggling through this thing. I was like, “I am literally helping these CPG retail brands with the same exact things.”

Alli Ball:
I really was developing this process that we followed with each client. So, I realized that, that there were these common struggles for CPG retail brands. And I also realized that emerging CPG retail brands don’t have that much money, right? And so, I’m like, “I’ve got to…” I had my hourly and package consulting rate. I’m like, “A lot of the CPG retail brands just can’t frankly afford one-on-one consulting. So, how can I create a program where I can impact more CPG retail brands at a lower price point and still help them find success in their food business journey?”

Alli Ball:
So, yeah. So, we launched Retail Ready about five years ago. When I first launched it, it was a live course. So, it was a cohort style where everybody started and stopped on the same day. You guys know how this goes, right? It was a six-week program, and I loved it. I would teach it three or four times a year, and that was just the highlight of my year. And even after teaching it the first time, I was like, “Oh, there is something here. I can see…” I wasn’t exactly sure how it would evolve.

Alli Ball:
But I was like, “There is something really, really magical in getting these CPG retail brands together and doing this group education.”

Alison Smith:
I love that, and that’s something that we’ve talked about a lot in the CPG world, is there’s a really great level of community. So, just that community that you’re giving in the course, I’m sure, is just helping people exceed and succeed beyond education.

Alli Ball:
Totally, and it’s wild now. So, when you enroll in Retail Ready, you get lifetime access to everything, including that community. So, we are a group of over 600 CPG retail brands. So, not everybody comes into our private community. Some people just prefer not to, and that’s fine. But we have about 600 people in our private student group who are interacting with each other on posts. They’re doing giveaways. They’re doing collaboration. They’re sourcing ingredients from each other.

Alli Ball:
I mean, it’s very, very cool to see. I did not imagine that when I first started Retail Ready.

Karin Samelson:
That’s awesome, yeah. The community of CPG is so powerful, no matter where you are or who you are, or what you’re selling, or what your background is. So, very cool. So, tell us a little bit more. This podcast is for CPG business owners and marketers. Who should be taking your Retail Ready class?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, thank you for asking. That’s a great question because we are really clear on who is a good fit and who is not a good fit. Because at the end of the day, if folks aren’t a good fit for Retail Ready, I don’t have a business, right? We have to make sure that they’re successful when they come into Retail Ready. So, the number one thing we say is that it is for producers who are already in production of their packaged food or beverage, or supplement product, or taxable grocery, like basically anything that is sold on a grocery shelf.

Alli Ball:
But they have to be in production, because I’m going to tell you, like as a former grocery buyer, I don’t know how to develop a product in a commercial kitchen. I don’t know how to extend your shelf life. I don’t know how to source your items, your packaging that needs to hold out moisture, right? That is not my area of expertise nor do I want it to be. So, once a producer, once a CPG retail brands already knows their production, knows how they are going to produce their product, hopefully you’re already in production.

Alli Ball:
You can come into Retail Ready and find success. And it’s cool because we have some CPG retail brands who literally join Retail Ready right as they’re doing their first production run, and we have other CPG retail brands who have been in business, 15, 20 years, who realize that they need to keep up-to-date with changes in our industry. And they either come in themselves or they send a sales manager or a new sales rep into Retail Ready, so they can be really up-to-date on what’s shifting in our industry.

Alli Ball:
So, it’s neat to see people at all different stages of their growth.

Alison Smith:
That’s so smart, having an avenue where people, seasoned, can come in and get up-to-date, because our industries are always changing. It’s always smart for continued education, which we always preach.

Alli Ball:
Totally. So, I always use Banyan Botanicals as an example here. They have been around for decades, and they have over 200 SKUs, huge product assortment. And they came into Retail Ready about a year ago before COVID hit, and they… you could just see the light bulbs going off in their marketing manager’s head. And she was like, “Oh, shoot. I got to get with it. I got to change some strategy here in order to keep the sales high.” So, it’s really neat how you can continue to learn at any stage of your business, right?

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I imagine the larger guys are learning a lot from the smaller guys on innovation and obviously vice-versa. So, I think that’s really neat.

Alli Ball:
For sure. I think a scholar… sorry to interrupt you. But a smaller CPG retail brands in a way feels like they can take more risk, right? As a smaller producer, you’re like, “Who cares if I’m going to use this weird filter and go live? I’m the founder. I can do whatever I want.” And when was the last time you saw like, I don’t know, the founder of Kraft doing an Instagram, like a Reel, with a weird filter on, right? It doesn’t happen. And so, I think the bigger CPG retail brands can really learn from the smaller ones in terms of seeing how to connect with consumers?

Alli Ball:
How to be an innovative CPG retail brands, how to be more flexible in the industry? Yeah, absolutely.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, that’s cool. And you mentioned, and without giving too much away about what you are teaching people in Retail Ready, but you mentioned you were seeing the same problems over and over where CPG retail brands were getting stuck. So, what are those general problems that CPG retail brands have?

Alli Ball:
Good question. The first one is not understanding your numbers. And I’m sure, you guys see this too, right? Where CPG retail brands come in, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, sales are great. We’re selling out every week. We’re doing great, blah, blah, blah.” And then, they do or don’t look at their numbers. And they realize that they aren’t making money, right? Revenue can be high. Sales can be high, and the profit still doesn’t necessarily follow, right?

Alli Ball:
And so, I think it’s really important to know your numbers from profitability standpoint rather than just focusing on sales, focusing on revenue because that’s not the full picture of what’s going on in your business. So, often, I see CPG retail brands who wake up three years into their lifecycle and realize that they have just created a really expensive hobby, and that they are not making money in their business. So, that’s mistake number one, like not really, really knowing your numbers.

Alli Ball:
Or I’ll give one other example in not knowing your numbers that we see a lot in Retail Ready, is CPG retail brands come in. Maybe they’re in year three or four, and they’re ready to bring on a broker or a distributor. And they go and start shopping around. And they realize, “Oh, my gosh, this broker… or excuse me, this distributor is going to take 20% of my margin. I don’t have that money.” And then, they’re stuck, right? It’s like, what do you do if you simply don’t have the money?

Alli Ball:
I mean, we’ve got some strategies on what you do when it comes to that in inside of Retail Ready, but you’ve got to make a decision on whether or not you move forward in that route. So, I would say like knowing your numbers from the beginning, making sure that you’re adding broker and distributor margin from the beginning. You guys would probably say like making sure you’re adding marketing dollars from the beginning. Yeah, so not knowing your numbers. That’s a really big one.

Alli Ball:
I’ll give four maybe. The second one that we see is not understanding how to pitch to buyers so that they actually say, yes, right? Alison, you asked a question around that in the beginning about what I looked for when I was a buyer. But I really want to emphasize that, that so many CPG retail brands make their pitch all about them and why their product is so amazing, and why we should buy it, and why it’s delicious, and look at our sourcing, and look at our giving back, and all of those things.

Alli Ball:
But at the end of the day, the grocery buyer does not care about them, right? They care about whether or not your product is going to sell on the shelf. So, a big mistake that I see is simply in the way that CPG retail brands are pitching their products to accounts in the first place. So, I’ll say this. If you’re listening to this podcast and buyers aren’t calling you back, you’re dropping off samples, and then they just go missing, or you don’t know if buyers tried them or not, you’re just like, “What’s going on with my samples? Where are they?”

Alli Ball:
If you aren’t sure if buyers are opening your emails or they’re literally never writing you back, or answering your phone calls, like it’s probably because you are pitching incorrectly, that you are not crafting a pitch that is frankly of any interest to that buyer. So, that’s a big one.

Karin Samelson:
That’s such great advice because people love talking about themselves so very much that it’s nice to have a reminder to just step back and give them a reason, a real reason why they should bring you in.

Alli Ball:
Totally. And I think one of the challenges are like I know why this happens, right? It’s because we as CPG retail brands, and myself included, are all about what we can do for the end user, right? How can I help emerging food and beverage CPG retail brands? How can you guys help emerging food and beverage CPG retail brands? It’s all about what we can do for that end user. And so, CPG retail brands in general, as they’re developing all of their marketing materials, as they’re designing their websites, as they’re doing their onboarding email sequences or their abandoned cart series, and all of those things, it’s all about the consumer.

Alli Ball:
It’s all about the person who is going to eat or drink, or use their product. And that is a very different pitch than the pitch that you want to make to the grocery buyer or to that wholesale account, right? Because instead of positioning it with, “We’re so delicious, we’re going to help boost your immunity. We’re going to make you run faster,” the grocery buyer does not care about that. They just want to know if it’s going to sell on their shelf. So, I think it’s just that subtle shift away from what we’ve been classically trained to do, right? Does that make sense?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, totally.

Alli Ball:
So, mistake number three, not having a plan for getting off the shelf. And this is really the challenge that I would see at Bi-Rite, right? Where I would put these really incredible CPG retail brands on our shelf. And then, they would just sit there, right? It’s really hard to change consumer behavior. It’s really hard to get people to try new CPG retail brands and put something in their shopping basket or in their online basket that they’re not already in the habit of consuming.

Alli Ball:
And if you land on wholesale shelves, whether that is an online wholesale shelf or a brick-and-mortar wholesale shelf, you have to sell once you get there, right? We talked about this at the beginning, that your role as a CPG retail brands, it needs to be the high sales or high margin. And if you are not performing, you’re going to get discontinued, right? There’s only so long that that buyer is going to let you use that valuable real estate without performing. And so, one of the challenges that I see is that CPG retail brands put so much effort into getting on the shelf.

Alli Ball:
And then, they don’t have a plan for moving once they do. And so, typically, that’s where a marketing strategy comes into play, right? Like figure out how you are going to get those people to take a chance on your product once you’re actually on the shelf.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I can see that being a big pain point. I mean, it’s very difficult to get to talk to the buyer to get on the shelf. A lot of people are like, “Okay, my work is done, let’s move on.” But it’s just getting started, right?

Alli Ball:
Totally. And I don’t want to say it in a scary way, right? We don’t want to be like, “The work is just beginning.” But it’s like we said earlier, at each stage of business, there’s a different challenge to overcome. And so, challenge number… well, challenge number one is building this CPG retail brands and this product, and understanding your numbers. Challenge number two is getting into the accounts where your dream customers are shopping.

Alli Ball:
And then, challenge number three is actually connecting with those consumers and getting them to whip out their wallets and pay for your products, right? Okay, I’ll give you my last mistake. The last mistake that I see all the time is, especially in COVID actually, this is… I don’t want to say it’s very particular to last year, but so often, I see CPG retail brands expand too quickly. And what I mean by that is a CPG retail brands… they almost feel like an overnight success, right? We’ve seen lots of CPG retail brands like this, especially with the rise of digitally native CPG retail brands where CPG retail brands will launch.

Alli Ball:
All of a sudden, they’re all over your Instagram feed. They’re all over the place. And they feel like an overnight success. And they attract a lot of attention, potentially from wholesale accounts. And sure enough, there’s demand for those CPG retail brands all across the country. And the challenge here again goes back to this idea that it’s hard to sell once you get on the shelf. And so, when you expand too quickly, and usually I see this being too quickly, too far regionally, like outside of your region, or too far like across the country, or shipping and all of those, the pace in which you can figure out your logistics does not match the pace at which your product is in demand.

Alli Ball:
And so, the problem is, then you have out of stocks. You can’t figure out how to ship your product around the country. Or you land on the shelf and it’s not selling, and you don’t have any strategy to fulfill that order that’s in DC when you live in LA, right? So, expanding too quickly is a problem that I see CPG retail brands make over and over again. And then, sure enough, what happens is you get discontinued because you’re either not selling or you’re too high maintenance with all of the problems that you bring in getting your product to their shelves.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, man. You want to say it’s a good problem to have, but it’s not. It’s just a problem that you should not want to have.

Alli Ball:
Yeah. And I think it happens for two reasons. I think first off, it happens because of ego, right? I’ll just use this imaginary CPG retail brands, right? Again, if you’re a CPG retail brands in LA and you’re… actually, let’s flip this. You’re a CPG retail brands in DC. And Air One in LA reaches out to you and is like, “Hey, we love your cold pressed juice. Can we sell it in our locations?” It’s really freaking flattering, right? And you’re like, “Air One loves me. Oh, my gosh. They’re natural foods mecca. Of course, I should say, yes.”

Alli Ball:
And then, you’re like, “Oh, gosh.” I mean, if I could swear on it, I don’t know if I can swear on your show, but if I could swear, I would be swearing right now where you’re like, “Oh, shoot. How are we going to get this product refrigerated across the country and fulfill these seven locations that are moving at a really fast rate?” So, I think it’s ego, right? We’re like, “Oh, it’s so flattering that this account wants me.” And then, I also think it happens because when we’re young CPG retail brands, a sale is a sale, right?

Alli Ball:
And you’re like, “I just need sales. I just need revenue. I will take any order just to up my cashflow,” without really realizing that bigger picture challenge that it brings to your CPG retail brands. So many moving parts, so many moving pieces. I mean, we are specialties in marketing. But when you really zoom out to all of the logistics that go into it, it’s shocking that these people can do this with one-person teams, with even two-person teams. I’m like-

Karin Samelson:
I know. We have a few Retail Ready students who have built literally like multimillion dollar CPG retail brands, solo, like one person.

Alli Ball:
I often recommend a cofounder. I think that can be very helpful, but yeah. I mean, I’m going to say, they’re mostly women, these amazing women who are building these CPG retail brands that are multimillion dollar CPG retail brands who… I mean, I’ll just say maybe it’s their superpower where they already know how to organize and get so much stuff done that they can do it solo until they get to a certain point. And I think, Karin, you’re right. There’s probably a breaking point there where going solo is not sustainable, right?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, absolutely. And you’re not one of those mega human amazing specialty people that I can’t even wrap my head around. So, what are some things that small- to medium-sized CPGs can do to experience that retail growth, to actually get pulled off the shelf?

Alli Ball:
Yeah. So, there’s a few things. And the first one, it sounds so simple but it’s hard to do. And you guys know this, is making sure that you are building a CPG retail brands and not just a product line. And I will say, like I say this every freaking day in Retail Ready, and people still really, really get stuck here, right? They’re like, “But my salsa line is delicious, but my hot sauce is so unique.” And at the end of the day, if you’ve got a salsa line or a hot sauce line, or a CPG beverage line, I don’t care what category you’re in.

Alli Ball:
If you’re not building a CPG retail brands that connects with your consumers at every single touchpoint, it’s really hard to create those loyal consumers who purchase over and over again, right? I’m sure you guys see it with your clients too.

Karin Samelson:
Absolutely. Everybody says that we always say it. It’s, “You’re selling your CPG retail brands, you’re not selling your product.”

Alli Ball:
Right, because you think about that retail shelf, right? I mean, anytime I go into a store and I just look at this wall of product, it’s like, how the heck do we make a decision on one nutrition bar over another? It’s almost always because of CPG retail brands. And whether it is because of the physical packaging, because we’re literally there on the shelf and we’re looking, or maybe it is that we’ve been served some really wonderful targeted ads that help us realize that that CPG retail brands, that bar is the bar for us.

Alli Ball:
And then, we go and recognize it on the shelf. That’s CPG retail brands too. It’s got to go back to building that community with your consumers so that you get, again, those repeat purchases over and over again.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, that just triggered something in me. I’m like, “Allison, is there a category for targeting grocery buyers? Are we missing something here?”

Alli Ball:
Actually, I feel like that’s a whole other podcast. Maybe you guys can come on my podcast and talk about this, but yeah. I mean, that would be really interesting. And we have had Retail Ready students who have success securing wholesale accounts, like big, big wholesale accounts through the DMs, through Facebook connections and stuff. There is a whole strategy for that, which is wild, and I don’t… you have to know what you’re doing, right?

Alli Ball:
If I were a grocery buyer and a mediocre CPG retail brands started DM’ing me and asked me to review their products, I might feel a little hesitant. So, again, there’s got to be a strategy here. But we are seeing alternative ways to get on wholesale shelves. So, yeah, running ads to grocery buyers, that’d be interesting.

Alison Smith:
I just love the scrappiness. I love that people are like, “I’m going to get it. I’m going to Google this person, find their Facebook and just get scrappy.”

Alli Ball:
Yeah. Have you guys heard of the Chrome extension that’s called Clearbit Connect?

Alison Smith:
No. I love a good Chrome extension though.

Alli Ball:
Me too. So, this might send some people’s creepy radar off. But essentially what it is, is a Chrome extension that you can put into your Gmail, and you can put in any website. It’s like you could put in alliball.com, and it’ll pull up all of the email addresses associated with that website. You could do it for me, and you could be like, “Oh, here’s clearly like Alli’s customer support one. I don’t know, here’s her Retail Ready one. Here’s her personal one.” It’s really neat. I mean, it’s harder when you’re trying to find, let’s say, your category manager for a regional whole foods, right?

Alli Ball:
That becomes a little more challenging with Clearbit Connect. But if you’re trying to get into the independent that’s down the street, by all means, put in that URL, and see what comes up.

Alison Smith:
What a hot tip. I love that. But beyond marketing to help push products off shelves, what should CPG retail brands be asking or talking with their buyers about that they generally aren’t?

Alli Ball:
Yeah. So, we have something inside of Retail Ready that I love, and it’s called the reorder checklist. And it is essentially these steps that you take with every new wholesale account in order to expedite the reorder. Because when that buyer takes the risk and says, yes, and puts you on their shelf, they are anxious until the reorder happens. Because they’re like, “Oh, did I make a mistake? Is this going to work? Oh, gosh. Are my expectations going to be met?”

Alli Ball:
And so, when they’re able to place that reorder, like less a little bit of weight off their shoulders, where they’re like, “Oh, actually, this was a good idea. This is selling well. I made a good choice.” And so, what you want to do as a CPG retail brands is really do everything in your ability to get that first reorder. And then, obviously, subsequent reorders as fast as possible. One, because it gets the buyer off your back a bit, right? It eases up on that relationship. And two, you want the sale, right?

Alli Ball:
You want sales. So, Alison, back to your question on how you go about doing that and what you need to do with that buyer from the beginning, it’s really connecting with them and realizing that that wholesale relationship is just that. It’s a relationship. It’s a partnership. I think so often, CPG retail brands feel like buyers are gatekeepers to their success. And they’re like, “Oh, if that cranky buyer would just put it on the shelf, I could prove them wrong. They’ll see.”

Alli Ball:
And I think what is much more effective is approaching that buyer and saying, “Hey, I am committed to this partnership. We both want the same things, right? We both want high sales. So, how can we come together to make this partnership happen, to make this partnership a success?” So, that might even be. I mean, I hate that I’m just coming back to marketing, but it might be doing marketing strategy that happens both from the CPG retail brands side and the store side.

Alli Ball:
It might be coming in or sending, in the case of COVID, samples to all of the grocery team who are literally stocking your product so they know how it tastes. It might be not now, but in the future again, like doing demos. It might be having a promotional budget where you can offer 20% off coupon for the first 30 days that you’re on the shelf, whatever it is. But it has to go back to that idea that it is a partnership and that you and that buyer ultimately have the same goals.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. And speaking about temporary price reductions and coupons, do you advise or do you think that CPG retail brands should have this a certain amount of times a year or when they’re first thing on the shelf?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Absolutely. So, sometimes, CPG retail brands get mad when I say this, right? They’re like, “Alli, I’m working so hard. I’m making such slim margins. I don’t have the money to just blow on sales all the time.” And that’s not what we’re talking about, right? I don’t advise that you go on promotion all the time. We don’t want to train our shoppers to wait for us to go on sale, right? That’s not what we want to do here. I actually think… let me use this example.

Alli Ball:
The other day, I guess it was… what is time? This was a few weeks ago. I pulled into the parking lot at Bed Bath & Beyond. And I was ready to go in and get my new shower curtain liner. And I realized that I forgot my stupid 20% off coupons at home. And I was like, “I’m not going. I’m not going to do it. I’m not going to go buy that shower curtain liner because I don’t have my 20% off coupon,” which was so stupid. But it really highlighted the example of Bed Bath & Beyond has… I’m sure it’s part of their entire strategy.

Alli Ball:
But they’ve created this CPG retail brands where the consumer expects 20% off or those $5 off, or $10 off coupons every single time they shop. So, when we pay full price for an item at Bed Bath & Beyond, we feel like we have been ripped off, right?

Alison Smith:
I feel good, yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That is such a good example. I’m not going into a BB&B without that 20% off coupon.

Alli Ball:
I texted my mom, and I was like, “I’m just in the parking lot of Bed Bath & Beyond.” “Don’t you know they have digital coupons?” I was like, “Oh, okay. Problem solved. Of course, they have digital coupons. I can get my new shower curtain. The world is fine.” But yeah, it really was such an example to me for like, don’t create a CPG retail brands that is… unless you want, right? And again, like bigger picture strategy. But it’s really hard to create a CPG retail brands that’s constantly on sale.

Alli Ball:
So, what I recommend instead is some quarterly promotion. I think once a quarter is a wonderful way to show your wholesale accounts that you support your CPG retail brands once you get on the shelf. And it varies from CPG retail brands to CPG retail brands how much that promotion needs to be, whether it can be 10% off. Maybe it’s a 50-cent reduction. There’s some strategy there. But then, quarterly, for sure. And then, always, Karin, I’m so glad that you asked this.

Alli Ball:
But I always think the fastest way to get a buyer to say, yes, to putting your product on their shelf, is to offer some temporary price reduction with the first order. So, what we like to do is some strategy. And again, customize it to your own CPG retail brands like how you see fit. But you could do something like, “Okay, if you order by April 1st, we will give you 20% off and free shipping on the first six cases,” or something like that. I mean, you guys know this, right? Put some urgency on that buyer, on that wholesale buyer.

Alli Ball:
And get them to make a move and place that first order. So, I always do some intro offer.

Alison Smith:
I love that. I don’t think it’s widely known that you can be that direct with your buyer.

Alli Ball:
Yeah, and I don’t think people are. It’s not known at all. This is one of the things that I love so much about Retail Ready, right? It’s like, once you hear it… I mean, Alison, I saw you, you’re like, “Oh, great. Duh, that makes so much sense. Let’s just do that.” And I love seeing those light bulbs go off in my students’ brains when we teach them things that aren’t necessarily complicated. It doesn’t have to shift your entire strategy.

Alli Ball:
We’re not asking you to redo your product line and redo your packaging, and redo your case size. We’re just asking you, showing you how to make subtle shifts that can really move the needle in your business. It’s cool.

Alison Smith:
That’s exactly right. I love that. I love how you put that. So, beyond running a promo, how else can these smaller CPG CPG retail brands stand out on the shelves or in general from their bigger competitors?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, that’s the million-dollar question, right? It’s like, “How the heck am I going to compete?”

Alison Smith:
Tell that to Alli Ball.

Alli Ball:
Exactly like, “How am going to do this?” We talked a little bit about this at the beginning, but really figuring out, or using your smallness to your advantage, right? And we saw a lot of this when COVID went down. As a small CPG retail brands, oftentimes, my students were able to react so much faster and be so much more nimble than these big CPG retail brands, right? I just imagine a product development meeting at Kraft where you probably have a dozen people sitting around the table offering opinions on whether or not you should put red or blue on the packaging.

Alli Ball:
And that slows you down immensely. And so, for these smaller CPG retail brands, I think one of the big advantages they had over the past year was just the ability to make decisions so quickly and move along, right? So, one, I think really thinking about your… seeing your smallness as an advantage rather than a disadvantage, both in reacting faster to things and creating this, again, smaller, like more intimate, more authentic connection with your consumers. And again, we talked about that a little bit of beginning.

Alli Ball:
But I love it when CPG retail brands feel like real people. I love it when I know the founders behind the CPG retail brands. I love it when I’m on social media and I see the founders doing lives or collaborations, or just showing their faces. And that doesn’t really happen with bigger CPG retail brands so much. So, really, really connecting with consumers in a more authentic way that the bigger CPG retail brands simply can’t, like being there, being nimble and showing up in ways that bigger CPG retail brands can’t. Does that answer your question?

Alison Smith:
Absolutely, and it’s I think that goes beyond retail. As you’re saying, it goes beyond anything. I don’t know what I’m trying to say here, but that is one of the biggest things that we preach as well with D2C. Your ability to show up and connect with your consumer even more so now that people are on social media all the time because of COVID, you can get on video and talk directly to the person that is your ideal customer, and Kraft is not going to do that. So, I definitely agree.

Alli Ball:
I think one of the silver linings of COVID too is that at least in the online space, it really leveled the playing field, where it was totally appropriate for CPG retail brands to show up online imperfectly or imperfectly online, right? Way back when COVID first hit, Miyoko from Miyoko’s Creamery, a vegan butter and dairy, nondairy CPG retail brands here in the Bay Area, she did… I can’t forget this. She did a series. So, it’s like a big CPG retail brands. She is a very well-put together woman who is always showing up and completely professional videos, and full-on photoshoots, and tours and all of the things, right?

Alli Ball:
And so, right when COVID went down, she did a series of… it was either Facebook Lives or IDTV where she was in her home kitchen in the Bay Area, and she was just cooking with her products. And literally, her cats were walking across the counter. And at this one point, she was like, “Oh, and here’s some cat hair in the dish.” I’m like, “Oh, my God, this is such a great example of something that would never have happened in 2019.” Miyoko’s would have never shown up without a full-on camera crew and the cats at the cat sitter’s house, right?

Alli Ball:
So, I love this idea that the playing field has been leveled in a way, and CPG retail brands are able to show up imperfectly.

Karin Samelson:
Absolutely. I mean, we say that we preach a charity to see clients of course, but proof here that this is helping with retail as well, the buyers, they see this. They see your content. They see how you’re showing up. And I think that that’s a really good note to keep pushing it.

Alli Ball:
Totally, totally. Yeah, I don’t know. There have been some silver linings of COVID specifically for the CPG industry, and I pulled up a stat from IRI. They just published a report a couple of weeks ago. I can link it for you guys. But they did a report that said that in 2020, small and extra-small CPG and private label manufacturers gained $12.1 billion in sales, like took away $12.1 billion in sales from big food. Is that crazy? Oh, I just got chills. Is that crazy?

Karin Samelson:
Yes.

Alli Ball:
One year, over $12 billion were taken away from those big commodity CPG retail brands and captured by literally they said… they called it small and extra-small. I was like, “Oh, my people.”

Alison Smith:
I love that.

Alli Ball:
I usually say small and medium. But no, it’s small and extra-small.

Karin Samelson:
Me too. I was like, “Do I need to change my marketing strategy where I talk about small and extra-small? Because it sounds cute.” Well, with COVID and all of the changes that happened in the retail space and in the grocery space, what are your thoughts on CPG in retail moving forward?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, big question. One of the big things to realize is that shoppers are so much more savvy, and CPG retail brands have to be so much more savvy as well, right? You can no longer have a half-baked CPG retail brands on the shelf. And I think that it’s so important to realize that, because previously, one could start a CPG retail brands in their home kitchen and dabble in the industry, and see how it goes. And I think it’s harder and harder to do that. And so, I do say that with a big disclaimer, right?

Alli Ball:
I don’t want to discourage anyone from pursuing their passion of starting a business, but you have to be savvy, and you have to do your research. So, you’re bringing a CPG retail brands, again, a CPG retail brands to the marketplace and not just a product line, right? Because buyers are so savvy now. Everybody’s online, like looking up reviews, and figuring out where they can order your product, and really digging it deep into your CPG retail brands. It’s no longer easy, yeah. So, that’s one.

Alli Ball:
The other thing, I mean, we haven’t really talked about this, but I think it is really important to acknowledge the rise of online shopping and e-commerce. And one of the things that I really like to emphasize is that most of the growth that we have seen with our Retail Ready CPG retail brands when they think about online sales, is really that rise in wholesale platforms. So, the Thrive Markets of the world or Good Eggs, or any of your many, many online platforms that are now selling groceries, and realizing that that’s still wholesale.

Alli Ball:
So, one of the things that we talk about a lot inside of Retail Ready is whether you’re pitching to a digital platform and pursuing that e-commerce route, or you are pitching to a brick-and-mortar, it’s still a real person on the other end who’s making a decision about your product line. So, you still have to convince that real person to carry your CPG retail brands on their digital or physical shelf. Obviously, direct-to-consumer exploded in 2020 as well. I think people were much more willing to go through a little bit of effort to find the CPG retail brands that they loved.

Alli Ball:
But we didn’t see D2C explode in every single category in Retail Ready. It was very specific categories that were more almost more functional for people than anything else. Did you guys see that too?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, we definitely saw that too. Yeah, the better for you, especially when so many things were out of stock.

Alli Ball:
Yeah, totally. We had one CPG retail brands in Retail Ready, and I’ll just say that they’re a honey CPG retail brands. And they had really high D2C sales in April of 2020. And they were really excited, right? They’re like, “Oh my God, we’ve never had much traffic to our website. This is amazing. We are flying through our honey. This is incredible. We are set for a great 2020.” And this was after COVID hit. And then, sure enough, May came, and June came.

Alli Ball:
And they were like, “Our sales, our online sales, our direct-to-consumer sales are back to normal,” right? “They’ve dried up again.” And of course, it’s because the category, like think about how fast, how quickly you go through a jar of honey, you’re not reordering every two weeks. At the end of the day, honey is not necessarily a product that we need to go individually to that beekeeper’s website to purchase necessarily, depending on where we live maybe. But it really varied category to category.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, one of our favorite questions to ask is, because we like to be inspired, and because we want to know about innovative new products and CPG retail brands, what are your favorite CPG CPG retail brands at this time and why?

Alli Ball:
This is a really hard question for me.

Alison Smith:
I know. We have to make you choose.

Alli Ball:
I know, like do I only say Retail Ready students? How am I going to narrow this down? But can I give a couple?

Karin Samelson:
Oh, yeah.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Alli Ball:
I’m going to give three CPG retail brands that I really love with the disclaimer that all of them are female founders, and two of them are in Retail Ready. And one is just a friend of mine. So, I love… and they’re all Bay Area. I’ll give that disclaimer too, because I had to narrow it down somehow, right? So, I love Kubé Nice Cream. You guys, this is the most delicious coconut-based ice cream that I have ever had. This is the only raw, cold pressed coconut ice cream without synthetic chemicals.

Alli Ball:
I mean, they are just absolutely incredible. And the reason why I love Kubé Nice Cream over other ice cream CPG retail brands in my orbit, is because they’re… so, it’s a Black woman and man as the cofounders, husband and wife, and they are using Kubé to take a stand against racial injustices. They are completely controlling their supply chain and their production line. And they are hiring BIPOC workers in their… like literally, in their own production facility to help create jobs in their community in Oakland.

Alli Ball:
And really, solving it from the ground up. I also love them because they don’t… I don’t want to say they don’t care about wholesale, but they’re like, “We sell thousands of pints direct-to-consumer, via a frozen product where people are literally preordering and coming to our little pop up to pick up our ice cream every week.” And they don’t need wholesale right now. And that’s okay, right? They just have created a business model where wholesale is not important to them right now.

Alli Ball:
So, they can be really, really selective about which wholesale accounts to go into. So, I love them. They’re amazing, like really, really, really, really smart CPG people. And then, the two other, I love Goldmine Adaptogens. I don’t know if you guys… either of you ladies take Adaptogens daily. But I will swear that that is the reason why I have had a pretty stress-free 2020, is because I’ve taken my daily-

Alison Smith:
My gosh, tell me more.

Alli Ball:
Yeah, stress-free.

Alison Smith:
I’m going to get the ice cream. I’m going to get stress-free with adaptogens.

Alli Ball:
Seriously. And the reason why I like them is because they… again, they’re really controlling their supply chain and understand that most products that have adaptogens in them in the United States are really… again, I was going to swear, like not well-sourced. And they are full of pesticides. They are grown in conditions that you would not want your food to come from or your people to be working in those conditions. And they’re usually imported adaptogens.

Alli Ball:
So, I love that Goldmine is sourcing all of their adaptogens domestically and really, really understanding that their consumer is looking for that, from the product. Really, that transparency throughout the supply chain. And then, finally, is Moonshot Snacks. Do you guys know this CPG retail brands?

Karin Samelson:
No, I’ve never heard of it.

Alli Ball:
Okay. So, I’m going to give you a big disclaimer so you can order these online. It’s like a cracker company. It’s pretty new. But if you order them and eat them, you will become addicted. There is no going back once you eat their version of Cheez-Its. So, the reason why I like them is because they are a carbon-neutral company, and they have put a stake in the ground. Their tagline is that they are climate-friendly snacks, and that is just… I feel like we need more CPG retail brands to be, again, so transparent in their values.

Alli Ball:
Specifically, I mean, it’s a value that I’m aligned with, with fighting climate change. But to have a CPG retail brands that is so, so clear about what you are doing, what you are supporting when you purchase this product, is really cool to me.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, I love that. It’s not like high nutrition or like good for you, sex. It’s climate-friendly snacks. Hey, I’ll try it though.

Alli Ball:
Oh my God, it’s so good. It’s founded by this wonderful woman again, a Black woman named Julia Collins. Again, she is just so brilliant. They’ve got a great marketing strategy and a really, really fun, playful CPG retail brands. You guys would love it. It’s cute.

Karin Samelson:
We’re going to follow all of these CPG retail brands. We’re going to-

Alison Smith:
I know. I’m-

Karin Samelson:
We’re going to purchase from them. I’m like, from the ice cream shipped all the way here.

Alison Smith:
This is my weekend, like-

Alli Ball:
I know. I’m like-

Alison Smith:
… Cheez-Its and ice cream, and just-

Alli Ball:
I know. I’ve painted this picture where I’m just lounging around stress-free, eating Cheez-Its and ice cream, coconut ice cream all day long.

Karin Samelson:
No one’s going to Photoshop that.

Alison Smith:
That’s a life, yeah.

Karin Samelson:
I like that. Awesome. Well, Alli, it’s been such a joy to have you. It’s so sad that our time’s up. We could just keep going for days.

Alli Ball:
Where did it go? I feel like that was so quick.

Karin Samelson:
I know. Well, would you like to leave the audience with a link or a call to action, a final statement?

Alli Ball:
Yeah, absolutely. I’m going to do two. So, first off, I’m most active on Instagram. So, come and send me a DM if you are watching this. I love following new CPG retail brands. So, shoot me a DM. I’m @itsalliball. I’m sure you guys can link it in notes or something. But let me know who you are, and I’ll give you a follow back, and see what you’re up to with your CPG retail brands. So, that’s number one. And then, number two is, I always love to give people my retail roadmap. So, I’ve got a free PDF.

Alli Ball:
It is my nine steps to building a CPG retail brands that flies off the retail shelf. It’ll recap a little bit of what we talked about today, and I’ll talk about getting more of the mistakes that I see people make. But that retail roadmap is key if you are thinking about pursuing wholesale accounts. So, you can find that on my website. It’s at alliball.com/roadmap. And again, thank you guys for having me. This was so fun.

Karin Samelson:
Thank you.

Alison Smith:
Thank you so much, Alli.

Karin Samelson:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency-driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders or whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram @umaimarketing, or check out our website, umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #15: Should You Clap Back?? Responding to Negative Comments on Social

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods business owners and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads, but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you.

It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in, visit our website at UMAImarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Alison Smith:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to UMAI Social Circle, where we talk consumer goods marketing tips to help business owners and marketers grow.

I’m Alison and that’s Karin, and we are co-founders of UMAI Marketing.

And in this minisode, we’re covering some tips on responding to negative comments you receive on social media. But before we hop in, if you like what you hear, please feel free to leave us a rating, a follow, or subscribe to our podcast wherever you are listening in from. Thanks so much and here we go.

Alison Smith:
So first of all, let’s talk about responding in general. I feel like it’s an easy thing to forget to respond to each and every comment on your social media. So Karin, how big of an impact or how important is it really?

Karin Samelson:
It’s extremely important. So, customer service is going to be one of the number one reasons that somebody that is following you decides to unfollow you on social. Or worse, stop buying your product or stop supporting you.

So, customer service is key for social.

More and more and more over the years we’re seeing people just completely forego going to your customer service at, or your hello at or your questions at email and just going straight to social. Dropping into your DMS, commenting on your posts, to try and get an answer to any of their customer service related questions.

Karin Samelson:
And, so especially if you have social handles on all sorts of platforms like Pinterest, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, make sure that you’re at least checking those every once in a while, because even if you’re not active on a platform, one of your customers can be.

And, if they ask you a question on that platform and you don’t get back to them for a month, either they’ll think you could be out of business or you’re avoiding it, and you never want that to be the case. So really, really focus on good customer service for all of the platforms that your pages are on and not just responding with really vague robotic answers are straight from your FAQ.

Put some life and energy and personality behind it because you’re also cultivating those relationships. And, relationships are what is going to help drive sales in the future as well.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. So, interesting to think of social channels as customer service channels. And, we really are seeing that trend, that people are less and less reaching out via email and more and more are just… They’re already on the platform so why not ask there? And, it’s a lot more personable, I would say.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. It’s a little ridiculous because it turns your social media manager and your content manager, community manager, into your customer service folks too. But, all in all whoever’s posting on your page, whoever’s managing the page, should be well-versed in your frequently asked questions and how to respond.

Alison Smith:
So, how much time would someone need to take on checking that and responding?

Karin Samelson:
It depends on your brand and how active your community is and how many customers you have and how many followers you have and all that good stuff.

So, if you’re a small to medium sized brand, which are the brands that we personally work with, I would say you can get that done in 15 minutes a day across all platforms, just making sure that everybody is responded to.

And again, I would recommend to do that every day at least 15 minutes. If you want to do it as the first thing that you do when you wake up right in the morning, that’s totally fine. But, try and figure out a consistent time each day where you can go in and manage all of those comments.

Alison Smith:
Hm. 15 minutes a day. I think that’s totally doable thinking about the time we already spent on social media.

Karin Samelson:
Exactly.

Alison Smith:
So, cool. Okay. And, should the founder be doing that to be more personable? Who can do that on a team?

Karin Samelson:
It depends how big your team is too. All of this is going to depend. So, I know plenty of founders that are running all of their social platforms.

So yeah, if that is you and you’re running your platforms and you’re the person that answers questions, then that’s going to be the founder doing it. If you have the budget to have a social media coordinator, they’re doing it.

If you have a tiny budget but not big enough for a social media coordinator, then hire a virtual assistant and just make sure that somebody is doing it.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. So, let’s hop into the theme of today, negative feedback.

So, it’s not fun to log into your social profiles and see those comments that are a little harsh. But again, the internet is a wild world. There’s going to be those people out there. So why is it so important, responding to negative comments?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. You never want people to see that. You never want your other customers to see that and wonder why you haven’t responded. It’s like, “Are they hiding something? Should I be concerned?”

And, negative feedback has no place on certain avenues. So on your advertisement, you are spending money to get your brand out there.

Negative comments that aren’t treated are just not going to be helpful, conducive to you driving sales with those ads. People are reading the comments more and more. How many times do you purchase something from Amazon and not read the reviews? Never. And, the comment section is pretty much a review section.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And, that’s a great point because with ads you want that social proof. You want all those comments, likes, shares, what have you, on the ads because it builds trust. So truly with ads you’re paying for that.

I think that brings out a lot of trolls and people who just like to make those negative comments. So my MO there, and I want to see if you agree, is just deleting those. Because like you said, you’re spending money on those ads, on those campaigns.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. And, especially if it’s not somebody… If it’s a prospecting ad and it’s not a customer, it’s not somebody who even knows your brand… And, that’s usually who they are on those ads. Delete and ban. They don’t need to be getting served those ads. And, you do not want to waste your dollars serving them those ads.

Alison Smith:
It could drive down your conversion rate significantly.

I would say the only time that you would need to interact with that person is with a retargeting ad or if they happen to see a prospecting ad and it’s an existing customer. And, I’ve seen this before, where they’re simply like, “I emailed customer service and no one responded,” and then they get served an ad.

And, then obviously that can be very frustrating. So, then they comment there. So, that’s the only case I could think of.

Karin Samelson:
That’s so true. We’ll get some of those. And, obviously some things slip through the cracks in your email.

So, I never really thought about that until you just said it, how frustrating that could be, if you have been trying to contact a brand and you get served one of their ads because you visited their website or whatever. That would be so frustrating.

So, it’s to be expected that these things would show up in your comment section.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is your procedure to respond? How do you look at these comments and decide how to react?

Karin Samelson:
So every single time that a negative comment, a piece of feedback, shows up on one of our pages, you have to ask yourself one major question.

That question is, “Is this going to serve another person in any way if I respond? Is this going to serve any person in any way if I respond?”

Alison Smith:
So, you’re not thinking about that person.

Karin Samelson:
No.

Alison Smith:
You’re thinking about everyone else. Okay? Cool.

Karin Samelson:
Yes. If somebody comes with negative feedback, yes, of course I want to treat them and I want to provide good customer service.

And, I want to answer their question or solve their problem. But, when it comes to responding, the first thing I ask myself, “Is it going to serve another person in any way?” I can’t say that enough.

Karin Samelson:
So if the answer is no, you’re going to do one of two things. You’re going to take it offline as soon as possible.

You’re going to tell them to DM you, email you at customer service. Or two, the other option is to delete the person, delete the comment, ban them from your page, get them off of your page. Because out of those two options, the first one is going to be, okay.

They’re probably one of your customers, they’re upset about something, and they need a response. But it doesn’t belong on your social platform because your social platform is not where all of your customer service should live.

So one, you can take that offline. But the other one, the deleting, if it’s not going to serve another person, delete it. They’re just a troll. And it’s up to you to decide if you think the person is a troll or not. And, there’s nothing you can do to change that person’s mind, you just delete it and you ban them.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I love that. You’re just straight to the point. Just ban them. But, I would say… Okay, so trolls would be someone who’s like, “This product’s stupid.” It’s just like, “Cool. Okay.”

Karin Samelson:
A classic one that always happens… It even happens on organic stuff. Is, “Why am I getting this? Why am I being served this?” It’s like, “I don’t know, man. I don’t know. It happens. So, you don’t need to be here. I’m going to get rid of you.”

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And, you’re doing them a favor too. It’s like, “You obviously don’t enjoy this. So we’ll cut ties.” Okay. So, that’s the no. That’s when it doesn’t serve anyone else. What’s the yes?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. So, if you ask the question, “Is this going to serve another person in any other way?” If you respond, if the answer is yes, it will serve someone, you will answer to the best of your ability.

Just remember that your response will serve as a reference point to a lot of people, to whoever sees that comment, not just the person you’re responding to. So, if you are able to educate and cultivate community with your response, absolutely do it. And, just be really mindful of what you’re saying.

Alison Smith:
Can you give a real world example of this?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Yeah. A person comes up and they’re like, “How on earth is this supposed to be good for my baby? How on earth can feeding X, Y, and Z be good for my baby?”

In essence, it’s a negative comment. It’s not positive. They’re questioning your product, they’re questioning the efficacy and the nutrition. It is important to respond here because while they might be a little troll-y, they might not be a customer, people…

They want to see how you respond. Especially if that comment was made hours before you even got to see it. We can’t all be on social media 24 hours a day.

Karin Samelson:
So especially if it’s been living there for a little while, you need to be like, “Okay.” I calm down. Maybe take a few moments to collect yourself.

But, remind yourself why they’re wrong. Write it down. Give bulleted points on your nutrition and how it actually is better for babies or whoever and offer that comment.

It doesn’t matter if they still respond negatively, because if somebody else that’s of more sound mind comes and they’re like, “This is fact based. These aren’t opinions.” It gives the opportunity for that person to be like, “Oh yeah, that person’s wrong. And they’re responding respectfully.”

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that speaks a lot, when you are able to respond and keep your cool. And, I guess what you’re saying here is you’re not responding to change that specific person’s mind. They probably already made up their mind. You’re doing it for goodwill upon your fans or people on the fence, something like that.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, absolutely. And, of course if you can change that person’s mind… Which happens all the time, more far and few between than not. But, it’s a win-win in that situation.

Alison Smith:
Cool. So, do you keep track of all of these comments and responses? Is there a document that teams need to have? How does that work?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. So, all CPG owners and brands should have your standard FAQ’s where… You’re frequently asked questions, you answer them.

Obviously, I don’t want you to copy and pasting these answers to respond to people on social because that’s super robotic. Just put a little bit more life and personality behind it. But, have your FAQ’s, have your standard answers. But, then also have those hard ones, especially if somebody is helping you like a VA or your social media coordinator.

Work with them to figure out the best responses for those harder questions, especially those negative ones.

Alison Smith:
So, are you saying it’d be a good idea to post in your Slack channel and get some feedback on how to respond?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, definitely. If you have a team and you’re like, “I don’t know what to do with this person.” But honestly, if you’re a founder managing your own social and you know your product like the back of your hand and you know your customers and you know that this person can be responded to in a certain way, do it. And, then write it down later.

Write it in your FAQ somewhere so that you can just reference it and not have to come up with a witty repartee on the side.

Alison Smith:
And, just quickly cut the 15 minutes to five maybe. Okay, cool. I want to play a little game.

So we’re going to play to respond or not to respond, that is the question. So, I’m going to volley up some scenarios for Karin and she’s just going to tell us how she would respond.

Karin Samelson:
I like the sound of this game. Let’s do it.

Alison Smith:
Scenario number one, you’re a biltong… Biltong.

You’re a biltong brand, which is a jerky from South Africa if anyone doesn’t know. And, you offer pasture-raised products.

You have an ad running that promotes your brand’s sourcing, your excellent sourcing, and it speaks to the increased nutritional value of your product. And, then here comes Dick Richards. Dick Richards comes along and he comments, “Higher nutrition? Yeah, right. In your dreams.” What do you do? Do you respond or you don’t respond?

Karin Samelson:
A classic Dick Richards comment. So just to say it again, this is a brand that has great sourcing and we like working with [inaudible 00:16:39] brands of course.

So, all of you are doing the best you can with all of your sourcing and all of your ingredients and all that good stuff. Good sourcing and higher nutrient content. And this guy’s coming along saying, “Higher nutrition? Yeah, right. In your dreams.” Okay.

Karin Samelson:
To respond or not to respond, I say absolutely respond. Because whether or not Dick wants to hear you lay down education on how your product is actually better is completely beside the point like we were talking about before.

You’re giving everyone else the opportunity to receive more education through your comment on why your brand is better, why it’s higher nutrition, why the sourcing of premium ingredients leads to higher nutrition, through your well-thought-out and fact-based response.

Karin Samelson:
So, that’s really important too. It’s got to be fact-based. You can’t just be putting out your food babe opinions out there. It has to be truly fact-based. And better yet, source. If you can find some… Not if you.

You should have already done this, especially if your brand’s established and you’re in production and you have sourcing on that information, whether it’s nutrition or whatever it is, source it. Send them that link and shut them up.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Lay down the facts. I love it. And that reminds me, I feel like I have seen for brands that you’ve worked on, that you’ve built out your comments and you do it consistently… Basically, created super fans. I’ve seen the super fans jump on people like Dick Richards before and do your work for you and maybe be a little less friendly.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Less customer service-y. Such a good point.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Which is always fun.

Karin Samelson:
We will do that sometimes. If it’s a negative comment that comes in… And you have to have an avid, engaged following. If nobody ever comments on your posts then nobody’s probably going to jump to your defense.

But if you have advocates of your brand that are really active in your comments section, let it sit for a second. Let it sit for a while and see what happens. Because, usually people will jump on it in your defense. And ,it’s pretty effective.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Fun to watch.

Karin Samelson:
Fun to watch.

Alison Smith:
Okay. Your next scenario. You’re a whiskey brand and you share a lot of male-centric imagery in your ads. So of course, Shirley Rogers is going to come along and she’s going to comment, “That guy is so ugly.” So, what do you do?

Karin Samelson:
Oh, Shirley!

Alison Smith:
Respond or not respond?

Karin Samelson:
So rude, Shirley. Not respond. How can you respond to that? There’s nothing-

Alison Smith:
It’s mean.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. It’s so mean. And that happens all the time, especially if you have humans in it.

And, that’s not okay. Bullying… And, I feel like it’s a lot of older people bullying on Facebook and then both younger and older people bullying on Instagram. I’m like, “Just get out of here.” So, I say don’t respond and delete it completely. There’s no reason that should sit there. And, what do you-

Alison Smith:
There’s no value.

Karin Samelson:
No value. Yeah. Is someone else going to get anything out of your comment? No. So don’t respond.

Alison Smith:
And, is Shirley troll worthy? Is she bannable?

Karin Samelson:
Oh, Shirley’s a troll. Ban her.

Alison Smith:
Ban, bye!

Karin Samelson:
Check to see if she’s following you, but chances are she’s not if it’s an ad.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Okay. And she’s not… Like the ad said, the scenario said it’s male-centric whiskey brand. Shirley’s maybe not in your core demographic. So, that’s something else that you can look at too to help you understand.

Karin Samelson:
Absolutely.

Alison Smith:
Okay. So, your final scenario of respond or not to respond is you’re a prebiotic beverage and you share something on your feed about how the product is good for your gut and helps you poop regularly. So, Tracy what’s-her-name comes on and she comments on your post. And she says, “I had diarrhea for 24 hours straight from this product. I do not recommend.” What do you do?

Karin Samelson:
Oh, Tracy. This is very, very real life.

Alison Smith:
That’s vulnerability right there.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. She doesn’t care who sees this. I respect Tracy. And, honestly usually that deserves to be in customer service.

But, a lot of times the reason why people come to your social platforms to complain is because they want immediate satisfaction from you. And they know by making it public, they’re going to get a response from you very quickly.

Oftentimes, I’d say 99% of the time faster than they would if they did reach out to customer service. So, that’s obviously another reason why it’s coming in hot on social.

Alison Smith:
That’s a good point.

Karin Samelson:
Mine is that doesn’t need to be there because it’s just not the greatest comment to live on your content.

So, what I would do is respond but in private. So, if it was an ad I would recommend deleting the comment and reaching out to them via DM, of course requesting she email customer service to continue the conversation.

Karin Samelson:
Since this scenario was in the feed, organic, we’re not putting any money behind it, I would probably leave it there and just say, “DM us for more information…” Or, “DM us, we need to take care of you. We’re interested in continuing this conversation.” And leave a quick response as to why it could have happened.

Like in this scenario, “You need to give your body some time to adjust because of X, Y, and Z. These are really powerful especially if you’re not regular.” Things like that. I don’t know, just your normal response so that future purchasers can potentially see that response and act accordingly. But, keep that comment super, super short. Respond super short and get them to your customer service.

Get them in private so that they have a reason to go through with the back and forth with you but not talking online like that. Take it offline.

Alison Smith:
Gosh, it seems like a cry for help, honestly. Poor Tracy. But, that is a big thing when you’re in the supplement world or the health world. You got to be really careful with claims and things like that. So, maybe expand on that.

Do you say, “Talk to your doctor?” Do you add those types of… I don’t know what that… Acclaims or what have you?

Karin Samelson:
That is so smart. Yeah. So, functional foods, just like you were talking about supplements, you don’t always have to say it. It depends what topic you’re talking about. It depends what you’re referring to in that moment.

So, in this situation I wouldn’t say, “Go to your doctor,” because we all know… Prebiotics, probiotics, if you have a bunch, that could happen to you. So, I wouldn’t want to scare people in being like, “Everybody who drinks this needs to talk to a doctor.”

Karin Samelson:
But when you’re going to refer things, for instance you have these brands that you really, really like and you’re saying, “It’s flu and cold season coming up. And, these are the supplements I like to take.” That’s probably when she should leave that disclaimer that says, “Discuss with your doctor before trying it.”

Karin Samelson:
But when it comes to your product, as long as you’re abiding by all FDA regulations and all that stuff, then I don’t see a reason to say discuss with your doctor. In private, in your private conversation with them and they’re like, “This isn’t right. I don’t know what happened.

I want to keep trying it, but this is not blah, blah, blah.” In that moment, it’s like, “Okay, well then, you can talk to your doctor about it if you’re worried,” but I would keep that private.

Alison Smith:
Okay, cool. Well, I had fun. That was a fun little game. Let’s wrap it up though. Just to give everyone some top takeaways for responding to negative comments.

Karin Samelson:
Cool. Yeah. So, responding to negative comments on social.

Key takeaway number one, ask yourself, “Is this going to serve another person in any way?”

And, then step two you’re going to respond either in app or offline or you’re not going to respond. You’re going to delete it. And if it’s a troll you ban them, you never see them again. So, those are our key takeaways. Ask yourself, “Is it going to serve anybody if I respond?” If not, get rid of them.

Alison Smith:
I love it. It’s very clear. Because, a lot of times it’s not so clear when you get those comments.

But, I love that question, asking yourselves that. But, if you guys have any additional comments or questions for Karin about community engagement or responding to negative comments in general, please feel free to shoot us a DM on our Instagram. It’s @UMAImarketing.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. And better yet, screenshot your next one that you really don’t know how to deal with and send it to us because these… They bring us some kind of sick joy.

Alison Smith:
Oh, man. We should start a blog about-

Karin Samelson:
A Tumblr?

Alison Smith:
Yeah, a Tumblr.

Karin Samelson:
All right. Well, thanks to you guys for joining us. And hopefully you got a little bit out of this minisode and we’ll see you next time.

Narrator:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency-driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram at @UMAImarketing or check out our website, UMAImarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #14: Poppi Mukbang, This Insta-Worthy Rebrand & Influencer Network Is Poppin’ Off

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods, business overs, and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time stress you out? Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads, but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes, and yes, then our mini course was made for you.

Narrator:
It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in visit our website at umaimarketing.com/mini course. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Karin Samelson:
Welcome to the UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods marketing tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Karin and Alison, co-founders of UMAI Marketing, and we’re diving into the functional prebiotic soda brand Poppi, and their explosive growth after their Shark Tank debut.

Karin Samelson:
Before we hop in, if you like what you hear please feel free to leave us a rating, a follow, or subscribe to our pod wherever you’re listening from. Thanks so much, so let’s get into this.

Karin Samelson:
All right. Poppi.

Alison Smith:
Poppi.

Karin Samelson:
A bubbly prebiotic soda.

Alison Smith:
They’re so cute.

Karin Samelson:
So cute, so cheerful, so colorful.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, so I have the peach tea flavor, and the raspberry rose.

Karin Samelson:
Okay, I got peach tea as well, and I have ginger lime. Really, I am a sucker for anything ginger limey, ginger lemony.

Alison Smith:
Same, they were sold out of all the other flavors at my local Whole Foods.

Karin Samelson:
[crosstalk 00:01:42]. That’s a great sign.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
Okay, so let’s crack one of these guys. I’m going to crack them open, try them.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, whoo. Cheers.

Karin Samelson:
Yes, cheers.

Alison Smith:
Okay, I’m having the raspberry rose.

Karin Samelson:
Peach tea, over here.

Alison Smith:
Oh, wow. I like that.

Karin Samelson:
What does it taste like? Can you taste the raspberry and the rose?

Alison Smith:
I have Poppi dripping down my computer right now. Okay, hold on. It’s so good. It’s raspberry. I’ve never tastes rose. I don’t know what rose tastes like, but [inaudible 00:02:28] the raspberry and it’s reminding me of something nostalgic, and I don’t know what it is.

Karin Samelson:
Dang it. I wish I had that one too, so I could tune in on it.

Alison Smith:
It’s good.

Karin Samelson:
Alright, well I got the peach tea and you have it too. It is delicious. It is very peach tea, so I’m looking at the ingredients list and it’s green tea. They use sparkling green tea with apple cider vinegar, so all of these have apple cider vinegar. That’s the kicker. Peach juice, apple juice, of course I like it. Apple juice. Cane sugar, natural flavors, and Stevia.

Karin Samelson:
This one has five grams total sugar.

Alison Smith:
Wow, that’s real apple juice.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alison Smith:
I like that. Yeah, I really like the peach tea too. It tastes like it’s not good for you.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, yeah. For sure. But I mean, especially when they put soda in the product name.

Alison Smith:
I have something to say, I feel like this is my drink. This is my drink.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, shoot.

Alison Smith:
I’m feeling it. It feels like it’s bad for you. It feels like it’s really bad for you, but it’s not.

Karin Samelson:
A treat, yeah.

Alison Smith:
This is the thing for me. I’m in.

Karin Samelson:
Yes, I like that. So, another, I’m not going to name names, because we’re on Poppi right now, but another brand similar, but different, they sent this questionnaire to all of their purchasers for like, I don’t know they were like, ” 30% off if you fill it out.”

Karin Samelson:
And, it was so long, and it was a great brand questionnaire, not brand questionnaire, but like a feedback. And one of the questions was, “Why do you drink it?” And my answer was, “Because it’s a treat.” It’s not even that it’s healthy, it’s that I crave something sweet and it’s a treat to drink it, it satisfies the craving, and I feel like that’s the same for this.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, this is good. I really did not think it would be this good.

Karin Samelson:
Ooh. Okay, I’m cracking open the ginger lime. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
I love ginger.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
I’m jealous of your ginger lime.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, the peach tea is good. It tastes like peach tea, but the ginger, I just love ginger drinks.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yummy. Okay. Yay.

Karin Samelson:
Very good. Very tasty.

Alison Smith:
Okay, let’s talk about the package. The can.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
And, we’ll cover this in a bit, because they went through a big rebrand. They used to be known as Mother Beverage and they were in glass bottles, so now they’re aluminum cans and now they’re marketing themselves as a prebiotic soda. So, really honing in on that gut health. “Be gut happy, be gut healthy.”

Karin Samelson:
Yep. And, those three points here right on the can, “Prebiotics for a healthy gut, infused with apple cider vinegar, immunity sidekick.”

Alison Smith:
Wait. Okay. Are you talking about the three bullets?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Okay, so I have a different one on the peach tea, “20 calories per can.” So, that’s their, I guess they’re testing different value props. “Prebiotics to support healthy digestion, one tablespoon of apple cider vinegar.” So, a little different.

Karin Samelson:
A little different, and we’re seeing slight differences on the cans. I wonder if that’s moving forward or if it just varies can to can, but just slight. But, the recurring of course, is the apple cider vinegar. That’s it. That’s the selling point here.

Alison Smith:
Well, I actually read that they are moving away from apple cider vinegar.

Karin Samelson:
What?

Alison Smith:
Because, it was turning people off. I think people were, maybe they got some feedback that people weren’t trying it, because they thought it would be sour or gross.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, really, so it’s just going to be prebiotics?

Alison Smith:
So, they’re focusing more on the prebiotic, which is so interesting because for me, I see these so trendy.

Karin Samelson:
So hot, right now.

Alison Smith:
Yes, trendy.

Karin Samelson:
And, prebiotics. I feel like packaging them at the same time, but I mean I don’t know.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, but I guess, yeah a prebiotic is more easy to swallow than thinking about a vinegary drink. So, yeah that’s interesting.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. So, both of them, if not all of them, I only have two, five grams of sugar or less. It’s a friendly reminder, which I needed the reminder, “You got to cut off the label to recycle.” Don’t forget it. And, it says it right there. Okay. I dig it. Very colorful.

Karin Samelson:
I mean, what did you read? That it was like a fashion statement.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. It’s basically like a photo opportunity to drink a Poppi, especially if you’re a millennial.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. It’s Instagram fodder.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Exactly. Which is, god that’s … I mean, what brand doesn’t want that major UGC?

Karin Samelson:
Yep. Yep.

Alison Smith:
And, photography. Okay, so I think we might have little variations on, I guess their story. So, my peach tea says, “Pop, cultured. Facts, no one wants a basic drink.” I feel like, leaning into basic again. Hitting on millennials.

Karin Samelson:
Well, it’s a non basic drink for basic people.

Alison Smith:
Or, gen-z.

Karin Samelson:
Sorry, but it’s true.

Alison Smith:
Sorry. I’m apparently one of them, because I am into it.

Karin Samelson:
Me, too. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
So, “Make every hour happy with this bubbly, better for you prebiotic soda that keeps your gut happy and gives your bod a boost.” So, they’re kind of saying, I feel like they’re inferring that this is your bod of boost. Like, inferring that this is … I don’t know if it’s exactly weight loss or what they’re trying to infer.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, just something positive.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
[crosstalk 00:08:53], positive.

Alison Smith:
“Downright delicious with barely there sugar these bubbles with benefits will be your new BFF.” Wow, alliteration. That was a lot of alliteration.

Karin Samelson:
I dig it though.

Alison Smith:
Okay, cool.

Karin Samelson:
Yep. Yeah, and their Instagram handles, and their website, everything you need on your cans, they got it.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And, just like we were saying, this just freaking pops off the shelf. Nothing else was this bright, and this colorful.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, pops. Like, who was part of that? Who did that?

Alison Smith:
Who did that.

Karin Samelson:
And I’m, just side note, a little interested to see what’s going to happen after I consume two full prebiotic.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I never have taken apple cider vinegar. I’ve only used it for salad dressing. Is it going to move?

Karin Samelson:
Your bod is going to get a boost. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Bod boost. Okay. Yeah. We’ll follow up if anything weird happens after having two of these babies.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, we’ll put it in the show notes. All right. Okay, now that we have tasted it, we’ve dissected the packaging as best we can. Again, full disclosure we are not branding experts, this is just, we are judging this based on being consumers and marketers.

Karin Samelson:
So, now let’s look at their background. So, this product was founded by a husband and wife team. Alison and Stephen. They’re from Dallas, Texas, so right up the road. And what she did was, they were combining fresh fruit juice with the prebiotic powerhouse we’ve been mentioning, apple cider vinegar, to create a soda that tasted really good and provided actual health benefits.

Karin Samelson:
She struggled with some health related issues, I can’t quite remember what they were, and this was something that helped with that.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I couldn’t find anything that was exactly what she was struggling with, and I was really curious to know, just because I wanted to know if I could relate at all. So, I don’t think she ever said, unless, if anyone knows feel free to tip us in.

Alison Smith:
But, it’s just the perfect story of the founder had a need that she couldn’t find in the market, so created the product for her own needs, and then turns out a lot of people had similar needs and wants.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, it looks like they were selling at their local farmers market, and then it led into their big Shark Tank debut. They’re Shark Tankers. Yeah, so they came onto Shark Tank in 2018 as Mother Beverage.

Karin Samelson:
So, that’s something that we absolutely have to note. They were, again, they were Mother Beverage, they had a really simple label. I think it was like a off white label with colored font, so it was just Mother.

Alison Smith:
In a glass bottle.

Karin Samelson:
A nice, glass bottle, and we actually, Mother-In-Law’s Kimchi was a long time client of ours and we did like a mother themed giveaway with them, and so they sent us the product, we tried it then, delicious, and so that’s what the brand was when they got onto Shark Tank.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I’m curious, I remember that giveaway. When they were Mother Beverage were they talking about ACV as the ingredient, or were they talking about prebiotics as the main selling point?

Karin Samelson:
That’s such a good question. I don’t want to say the wrong answer, but my gut, it was ACV. It was an apple cider vinegar drink.

Alison Smith:
Interesting.

Karin Samelson:
Oh, sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s what my gut says from that.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Because, I remember Mother-In-Law’s Kimchi, the Kimchi, the, “It’s alive with probiotics.” And it was just that kind of themed giveaway, especially with the name Mother.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I think you’re right. That’s what I remember too, is that they were really focused on an apple cider vinegar, so that’s really interesting. Whoever did their rebranding must have done a lot of looking at some data to understand that prebiotic was the right change.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And speaking of, I mean, the investor from Shark Tank that signed it on, Rohan Oza, just the king, of beverage who was at Coca-Cola for forever, the companies that he was at sold to Coca-Cola for just like what? Billions.

Alison Smith:
Rohan. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
So, literal kind of beverage was the person that signed on for their investment for, I believe they were asking $400,000 for 10%, and he got them for 400,000 for 25%. And, obviously we don’t know the backend of Shark Tank and how those actually play out, but it’s very clear that, that one played out and CAVU Ventures, which he’s the co-founder of, they are investors in Poppi now.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and they’ve got a stacked portfolio, so one of my favorite snacks, Skinny Dipped, they have them. Hims and Hers, Health Aid, Bulletproof, Waterloo.

Karin Samelson:
Vital Proteins.

Alison Smith:
Waterloo Sparkling Water, another Austin brand. Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
The list goes on.

Alison Smith:
A great, great move I would say, for Poppi.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. I mean, they know what they’re doing and Poppi, how lucky is that to get under the wing of someone so powerful in this space. A true expert in this space, so obviously I’m sure he had a huge hand in that rebrand, and what it looks like now.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, so Poppi went to launch nationally in grocery stores, in retail stores, I think they got on with Whole Foods pretty early on, but it was during COVID. It was March that they were set to launch, so I know they had a, write up in Forbes talking about that struggle of them trying to launch during a pandemic, where people weren’t going into stores and what they were ordering, and things were just, like rice and things like that.

Alison Smith:
But, do you remember what it said? I mean how they did with that launch, regardless of full on pandemic?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, and I mean, I think the story is very similar to a lot of brands that launched last year. It was kind of, with a little bit of worry, but I remember some of our clients had the biggest sales they’ve ever had and they weren’t those pantry staple brands. They were just better for you, healthy products that they could get their hands on, and that could last.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, so it looks like the timeline of it was, 2018, December at the very end of 2018 they were on Shark Tank, they got the investment and then January, of 2020 is when that rebrand officially happened, they launched it, and then, yeah, March they went to launch nationally in grocery and lo and behold the pandemic.

Karin Samelson:
And I believe what was said, was that the already had their production runs, they already had this product so what could they do other than launch? So, they did and luckily this is a better for you, healthy option, so I think the rest is history here.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
They’re killing it.

Alison Smith:
Well, I think they also pivoted a bit and got onto Amazon and things like that to help push sales, but yeah like Karen said, “We only work for better for you brands.” And, luckily they were okay during pandemic times.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. And so, now I really do wonder now with that national launch in retail and then Amazon, and then they have [inaudible 00:17:14] on their website now, which I can assume, but I wish I could see how much of those sales are coming from each platform.

Karin Samelson:
Because it’s so interesting, before the pandemic you never would have thought to buy something like this, these ready to drink canned beverages online, but I bet that they’re raking in those sales online.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Yes.

Karin Samelson:
Especially because of their influencer program, which we will talk about in a moment.

Alison Smith:
Definitely. And I mean, beyond Amazon and just your own site, there’s the grocery delivery and all that jazz. But yeah, I totally agree. I never was the consumer that would go and buy something that’s like a treat or like a snack online, but now I do.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. We all do. Well, a lot of us.

Alison Smith:
But yeah, so it’s really interesting, I mean we’re only giving you what we can find online, and we do have a small pass with them since we did a giveaway once upon a time before they rebranded, but also it’s interesting to look at how the growth happens with social.

Alison Smith:
So, we tell a lot of our smaller brands that it’s really important for the founders to get on and get on stories, and just tell their story on the feeds, and what have you, and it’s hard to do, but Alison, the founder here had, I don’t know if she still does it, but she was getting on every Friday to answer questions on Instagram. They called it Founder Friday’s.

Alison Smith:
Just answering questions, communicating with their audience, and I don’t know if she still does it, but it’s cool to see that work you put in, that early stage work is so important, and it makes people become super fans of your brand.

Alison Smith:
Now you don’t really see her as much on their Instagram, because they’re experience massive growth and they’re pulling in others to be featured.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Totally. And exactly what Alison just said, there are so many benefits of having founder focus, putting a face to a name, connecting in a way that just a product can’t. Because again, you’re not selling your products, you’re selling your brand.

Karin Samelson:
And so, these Founder Friday’s that she did, they look really prevalent, early, early within their launch, their rebrand launch of early last year and then you see them a lot few and far between her being featured, because it’s a certified brand now. It is far beyond what I personally thought.

Alison Smith:
It’s like a beast in its own.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Yeah, very cool. I love that and then I also really love how they’re mission based. They’re giving back, and especially we’re seeing a lot of brands do this, especially during the pandemic and PR or no PR, brands are doing it, because they can and it’s the right thing to do. So, love that they’re doing that. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, I read that they were giving back by sending this to hospitals, which is really interesting. I mean, it is a … I mean, I don’t know how many studies they done, I don’t think there’s a lot. It’s more of a home remedy, I guess, to take apple cider vinegar, that they are bringing to the masses.

Alison Smith:
But, apparently they’re sending it to hospitals. I mean, no matter what, if it’s going to help or not, it’s a delicious treat.

Karin Samelson:
I wonder if it’s just for the employees there, or if they’re offering it to … I don’t know.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
I have no idea.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Part of the lunch, I mean.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, the offerings. Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know either.

Karin Samelson:
Tell us, Poppi.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. That’s pretty interesting.

Karin Samelson:
Cool. So, yeah rebrand happened, they exploded, it seriously pops off the shelf now, like Alison said earlier, a fashion statement for millennials to take photos with. It really is. Just go to their tagged photos and their influencer program is crazy robust, but it’s trendy stuff y’all.

Karin Samelson:
And, I say trendy not in a fleeting way. I think it’s going to be here to last and it’s just an exciting and really visually appealing thing to look at.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, and I know we kind of touched on this, and obviously I would love to look at why they made this decision, but what we’re seeing is, like we said, they saw issues with the name Mother, their original name, because it was, I believe it was too vague to copyright, which makes sense.

Alison Smith:
And, then they were also honing in on the apple cider vinegar aspect, but somehow they found out that it was actually turning people off, so now you can see they’re rebranded to a prebiotic soda.

Alison Smith:
I think the only time apple cider vinegar is mentioned, other than the ingredients, obviously, is, “Infused with apple cider vinegar.” So, it talks more about prebiotics than anything, I would say on the packaging and on the site.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, even on their Instagram bio, “Join the prebiotic party. 20 calories, five grams of sugar or less, be gut healthy, be gut healthy. Seen on Shark Tank. Prebiotic soda for all.” It is a certified prebiotic soda and apple cider vinegar is just the, it’s just a little hidden gem.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And I also saw on the site they kind of touched on the benefits of apple cider vinegar. It wasn’t backed up by any studies, it was, “May help this. Could provide this.”

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Which is what you need to do to protect yourself, but it did touch on like, “May improve skin quality.” Which is like, “Whoa, a beauty soda. That’s so interesting.” Like what a new category.

Karin Samelson:
I know.

Alison Smith:
And, I know there’s the hyped collagen drinks, but this is kind of the first time I’ve ever seen it in a soda.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, and I mean it’s a good note. We totally forgot to say what the other flavors were. We’re only trying three of their many flavors. So, they have watermelon, strawberry lemon, ginger lime, raspberry rose, blueberry, orange, pineapple mango, which sounds so good, and then peach tea. So, they have quite a few flavors right now.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm, (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
All right. So, I do want to touch on the influencer portion of this, because while there’s lots of things going for them, the one thing that stands out to me, other than the rebrand of course, is influence marketing.

Karin Samelson:
And, we don’t want to come on here and just assume things, and speculate, but this is a fact that they’re doing this. I have no idea how much they’re spending on it. I can safely assume that it’s a pretty penny.

Alison Smith:
Because, you’re seeing macro-influencers, right?

Karin Samelson:
Oh, yeah. Macro and mega. These are big influencers that don’t do things for free, and especially don’t let you re share their stuff for free, if they do like the brand. Right?

Karin Samelson:
And, it seems like a lot of them are advocates of it. They’re true drinkers of the soda, and it’s pretty dang easy too, because I mean, I have only two here, but they’re delicious.

Alison Smith:
They’re delicious and who is not your … I mean, they obviously hone in on a target market, but who doesn’t want a delicious drink. You know?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
[crosstalk 00:25:10].

Karin Samelson:
And I mean, their demographic, I mean it’s the millennial woman, and they really focus in hard on that. So, pretty cool and it looks like what they have going on is, also, I don’t know, again I’m just talking, that the influencer program, a lot of them are affiliates so they have their own promo codes, I think it’s for 10% off or something like that.

Karin Samelson:
Obviously driving sales on E-com, onto their website, getting a lot of traffic there, and then definitely retargeting these folks. I can hope and assume. And it’s just, this is well and good, especially for a brand that’s funded like a big venture firm, like CAVU, but what you can do as a small to medium sized CPG brand, is probably, I don’t know if this is in your wheelhouse, if you are funded enough, if you do have your own money to put behind this, good for you and that’s great.

Karin Samelson:
But what you can do, is really focus in on the micro-influencer route, so look what they’re doing though. Take them as inspiration. Look at what they’re offering them, how they hone in on their customer avatar, what kind of vibe they’re sending out, how it connects with the actual brand, because like you sell the brand, you don’t sell the product.

Karin Samelson:
So, with the smaller budget, with the smaller brand you can really hone in on those micro-influencer programs.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, and we’ve been having a lot of talks about influencer programs, and someone said recently just picking a macro, like a huge influencer with a million plus followers and betting, like working with them, it’s literally a bet. You might see zero sales.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
You never know. So, we really prefer to work with these micro-influencers, get in with them early, you never know what’s going to happen. And then also, we usually give discount codes, so that we can track sales easily.

Alison Smith:
So, we kind of make them more affiliates, like Karen was saying, because that also incentivizes them to continue to post, because they directly receive that commission.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, unless you have the money, again, it really depends on how much money you have. Unless you have the money to invest, and not put all your eggs in one basket, I’m going to give you a slight situation.

Karin Samelson:
So, we had a client in the past who, we were running a micro-influencer program for them, it’s super successful, in terms of their turn on investment, and a mega influencer came around, huge reach, huge engagement, real engagement, not bots, and we were like, “Okay, let’s see what happens. Let’s try and work with them.”

Karin Samelson:
The investment was very high. Very, very, very high and we should have known better. Right? We should have made sure that they were a true, true, true advocate of the brand. Especially if you don’t have enough money, and we ran that program and not one sale.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
Not one sale. And that is such a huge blow. Not only to your finances, but to your idea of what these influencer programs can do. So, unless you’re able to invest your money into so many of these mega influencers, start small and be smart with it.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
So, what I love that Poppi is doing, even though they’re mega, is their packaging. So, their influencer kits, their media kits or whatever you want to call them, they are just as colorful as the cans, they’re all different. That’s a little bit expensive, if you’re smaller you can have one box that really houses your products beautifully.

Karin Samelson:
If you want to invest more money, I would say that, that’s a great place to start. It sends a different message than if you just have your product strewn in a brown cardboard box.

Karin Samelson:
So, that’s something I really like that Poppi does, and I think smaller businesses with a little bit of a budget can do, but yeah. With those micro-influencers here’s what I would suggest that you do directly.

Karin Samelson:
So, create your list. Create a list of micro-influencers within your niche that look like your customer avatar, that are probably around, I don’t want to say be specific on a range, because it really has to do with your engagement rates too, but anywhere from 5,000 followers to, I don’t know, 25,000.

Karin Samelson:
You can be flexible. Certain people will work with you if they are a true advocate of your brand, they like your product, and create a long, long list. So, we’re looking at kind of, 25% conversion rates now, so if you want to work with 25 micro-influencers, make a list of 100 at the very least, and you’re going to nurture the relationship.

Karin Samelson:
We have a complete guide on how to do that, and what that looks like. If you subscribe to our email list you’ll get that sooner or later, and that’s just the nurturing of the relationships and the cultivating of that community, and then sending free product and seeing how it goes step by step.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I mean, I can’t hit on the nurturing more. It’s so important. Think how turned off you would be if a brand was just like … Just cold DM’d you and was like, “Hey, you want to post a picture of my product?” No.

Alison Smith:
It’s like, you need to become friendly, and like and comment on their posts, and let them know that you’re on their team as well, and that you care about them before ever asking for anything. So, it does take a little more effort and a little more time, but I mean, a conversion rate, our last round I think the conversion rate was over 30%, and that’s big. That’s pretty large saying that 30% of the people we reach out to are like, “Yeah. Let’s do it.” So, definitely put in a little bit more effort, if you’re going to run one of these programs.

Karin Samelson:
Absolutely, and it seems so simple on the outside, just to get, “Oh, this person posted about you. That’s so nice.” The amount of work that goes behind it, it’s a lot of work and you got to be ready to do it.

Karin Samelson:
And, Alison just slammed her peach tea. One down.

Alison Smith:
I’m done.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, but I mean, these micro-influencer programs, and you’re seeing it more and more, they really are the way to do what they’re doing, but on a very much smaller scale with people that have the opportunity to grow, just like Alison said. It’s like, these people might have 5,000 followers and 300 people engaging with them per post, and Instagram’s crazy. Social media is nuts.

Karin Samelson:
They can go viral and in a month they have triple that, quadruple that. So, the relationships are key. And something that I really like that we talked to a founder recently was, he said that even though he has social media help, he goes in and he has those communications with those influencers. I realize how busy all of you are.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
I completely get it. And of course, having somebody else do it is great, but if you do have the time and you do enjoy it, jump on, get in there.

Alison Smith:
It’s going to speak volumes too.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Sign off as yourself.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Anything else you wanted to talk about with influencer?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Well, just touching on the fact that it’s not just them introducing your product to their followers, you’re also able to utilize their content. As long as you ask. That’s key. You got to ask.

Karin Samelson:
So, with these micro-influencer programs that I suggest all be small to medium size businesses do, is offer the free product after you enter into the relationship, offer free product, get it to them, follow up with them after they receive it and make sure they liked it, and then you offer affiliate commissions.

Karin Samelson:
You say, “Hey, I would love to offer you this discount if you want to push it to your followers you’ll get a 10% commission or a 15% commission,” whatever you can afford.

Karin Samelson:
And then utilizing the content that they created, as long as it’s approved by them, to run ads, to post on social. You know?

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And, that’s what I was going to say. All we do is DM and ask, again, “Can we use this in a advertisement?” And, it’s a different level that you do need to ask for. Actually, I don’t think we’ve ever been told … We’ve been told no, like once. So, usually very high in that message a lot of times, depending on the client, we’ll say, “We’ll send you more free product.” Or something like that, which, I mean if they’re smaller influencers that’s amazing. Who doesn’t want free things.

Alison Smith:
So, we do that a lot, and those types of UGC ads, they look very native on the feed and they perform really, really well. They build social proof and trust for your brand, so yeah. I mean, there’s so many ways to repurpose these types of programs to work better for you and grow your brand.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, these influencers are so creative. They can bring ideas to the table that you would have never thought of creatively, which I really love.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
And I hope, if any influencer is listening now and rolling their eyes and they’re like, “We don’t just want free product.” It’s like, “Yeah. I understand that.” I completely get the amount of work that goes into it and I respect it completely, but it’s really important as a brand to understand who these people are and make sure that they’re true advocates.

Alison Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Karin Samelson:
And once you do know that they’re true advocates, and you know that you’re giving some affiliate commissions, they are selling your product, absolutely get into paid partnerships with them.

Alison Smith:
Yeah.

Karin Samelson:
Pay them for more of their time and more of their effort, and you’ll have even more results from that.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. And again, asking for use of an ad isn’t going to work every time, but when you understand who the right person to ask, and that’s probably after they’ve made some money of being an affiliate for you, so that might take a little bit of trial and error, but those types of ads perform amazingly.

Alison Smith:
And I’m actually looking at Poppi’s ads library, and that’s what they’re using as well. So, something else to take note of.

Karin Samelson:
Ooh. Are they using like a lot of UGC for ads?

Alison Smith:
They don’t run a ton of ads, so they’re promoting a giveaway, they have some studio shots, and then the rest are UGC.

Karin Samelson:
Cool.

Alison Smith:
So, definitely take a look.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Peak at their ads library.

Karin Samelson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, that micro-influencer program that we’re talking about, perfect for these smaller stage businesses that are just getting their feet wet with influencers that don’t have that much funding.

Karin Samelson:
Once you get funded, once you have more, really reward the people that have been by your side. These influencers that have worked their tail off for you for content, for commissions, for just true supports of your brand, really reward them. Get into some paid partnerships, collaborations, have them take over on your page. Just nurture that relationship from start to, I don’t want to say finish, because you never know how long these last.

Alison Smith:
To start for forever.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. To forever.

Alison Smith:
Well, cheers y’all.

Karin Samelson:
Cheers.

Alison Smith:
That was fun. That wraps up our Poppi mukbang and deep dive into the brand. Thanks everyone for listening. We are fans.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
Obviously. Feel free to DM us, at UMAI Marketing on Instagram, if you have any specific Poppi questions or comments, and we’ll talk to you guys soon.

Narrator:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency driven podcast based out of Austin Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders, and whatever else we learn along the way. Follow us on Instagram at UMAI Marketing, or check out our website umaimarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.

Read – #13: The 360° CPG Experience With Notley’s VP of Marketing, Emily Kealey

Narrator:
Calling all consumer goods business owners and marketing professionals. Does planning content ahead of time stress you out?

Do you want to run Instagram and Facebook ads, but just aren’t sure where to start? If your answer is yes and yes, then our mini course was made for you.

It’s 100% free and packed with essential tactics that you can implement as soon as today. To join in visit our website at umaimarketing.com/minicourse. All right, let’s get on with the pod.

Welcome to UMAI Social Circle, where we talk consumer goods marketing tips to help business owners and marketers alike grow.

We are Karin and Alison co-founders of UMAI, and we’re being joined by Emily Kealey, executive director of Naturally Austin, the leaders in crafting a community around CPG here in Austin. How are you, Emily?

Emily Kealey:
I’m good, guys. Thanks for having me on. Really, I appreciate it.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah, thanks for joining. Well, let’s start off with your background. I know that you have a PR background. So, did you always have an interest in this? How did you get your start?

Emily Kealey:
I did always have an interest in PR right out of the gate. I’m actually from East Texas originally. And, I got to attend a all girls high school in Dallas called Hockaday, and I’m very grateful for that opportunity.

Then, I went to SMU and knew immediately that I wanted to get into corporate communications and public affairs. And, I gravitated naturally towards CPG.

I come from a family of entrepreneurs and so CPG and food was always my passion. And, after SMU, I moved to Los Angeles and got into cell phones, doing cell phones back in the day when there was other cell phones besides the Apple’s iPhone.

This was like the clamshells and like the Motorola Razr, stuff like that.

While I love that I really missed doing food, so I had the opportunity to move over to a larger global agency called Manning, Selvage & Lee.

From there, I got to do Red Bull, I got to do Friskies Cat Food, and I think that was probably one of my most interesting ones that I’ve ever done client-wise was I traveled the country to like 18 cities with the Friskies Cat team.

And, we had cats that could dunk basketballs, we had cats that would roll over and it was really about getting… And, it was a large house you guys with the cats and they’d put on a show.

So, this was like my job. I got to go do this. And, so my job was to go pitch to local media. And, what was so fascinating was as I was pitching local media, we’d have media fight over who got the cats first. I was like, “This is like a PR person’s dream.”

But, it was really where I fell in love with doing CPG across the board.

It was Nestle Crunch bars, Sonicare toothbrushes, all sorts of stuff that really helps people live a better life. And, I think there’s a stat that I read the other day that on average Americans use 44% CPG products a day.

So, it’s a really interesting stat there. And, I think about… If you think about all the things people touch and use daily, that’s why I love this because I feel like it serves a purpose, right?

And, it can bring you joy, it can give you function, it can help you out in your day. So, I’ve always thoroughly enjoyed doing CPG and that’s why I’m here now.

Karin Samelson:
Friskies. So, I have a background in pet food marketing at Nulo-

Emily Kealey:
Oh, you were in pet foods?

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Nulo, here in Austin.

Emily Kealey:
Oh, that’s very… Oh, awesome.

Karin Samelson:
We did not have cats dunking stuff, but we did have this woman who was on America’s Got Talent with her Border Collies. And, so she came one time and it was like a trick day, but if I could have done that every day, like that was my job, I might still be there.

Emily Kealey:
It was really… I mean, we had people wearing sweatshirts. Everything’s better with cat hair on it.

Like we go to cat shows… I’m an animal person. I have a cat right now. And, I’m a cat person, but I was like, “These are serious cat people, like really…” I am not a cat person like these.

I mean, it was just fascinating to watch and it was one of my favorite things I’ve ever done. And, then I moved here to Austin and really worked on food, so having food.

It was like, National Mango Board, National Land Board, California Table Grape association. So, Mango Board was our biggest client. So, it was actually promoting mangoes in the US. And, if you think about, well, it’s a lot longer than I care to admit now about probably 12 years ago, mangoes were not prevalent in the United States.

And, so we were doing things like mango salsa, which people also didn’t know about.

So, it’s really fun to get to bring mangoes to the center of the plate, lamb, things that people eat. And, it was all healthy, delicious foods. And, I got to do really cool stuff with chefs and go to New York all the time and set these big dinners and… It was just really, really fun. So, I really kind of run the gamut of fresh foods to CPG and everything in between including cat food.

Karin Samelson:
That, is so interesting. What a great background in CPG and food in general! So, how did you like working at those big agencies?

Emily Kealey:
I said I come from a family of entrepreneurs and while I like agency work, it was a lot, it can be definitely a lot. And, I actually I got to… I was here at FleishmanHillard running the overall mango program and I decided to do something totally different, and I left and started a pie business.

So, I owned a pie company for three years. And, it was this idea that I really liked pie. I come from Southern roots. So, I grew up-

Alison Smith:
Who doesn’t like pie?

Emily Kealey:
Huh?

Alison Smith:
Who doesn’t like pie?

Emily Kealey:
If you don’t like pie you need-

Alison Smith:
That’s weird. Yeah.

Emily Kealey:
I love pie so much, and I love making pie. And, I had this idea because every time I get in front of a case of pies, I’m like, “I want all the slices.”

But, that’s not really great for caloric intake. And, so I was like… I had this idea for a bite of pie that the crust is on the outside and the filling is in the middle. So, we actually made it, we made this product and we called it Crimps, and we had all sorts of flavors.

We had strawberry basil, we had chocolate cream. So, it was really, really fun. And, what I appreciated about that experience was it put me on the other side of CPG, it made me realize all of the things from supply chain to cooking in the kitchen, marketing, P&Ls.

I mean, you had to… As a CPG owner, you have to wear so many hats all the time and it’s can be crushing, right?

And, I actually was just telling somebody earlier, that’s why I love Naturally Austin.

I think if I had Naturally Austin and the resources and networking and getting to great people like you guys to help me out with social and all of that, it’s just a really powerful organization because it helps, to me, provide that education and networking and resources there.

That just weren’t here when I had a pie company. Oh, my gosh. Like, nine years. Oh no, my gosh, like 12 years ago. It was like so long ago. I forget how old I am. But, that was a really great experience that I had.

I’m so grateful for it. Because, as I took over the job at Naturally Austin, I was able to take a look at it from, obviously the marketing and PR side of all of it and scheduling events and all of the stuff that comes with it, but I also was able to relate to the, I think the CPG members who own companies and I listened to them and hear like, “I really need help here.” And like, “I understand.”

I remember being up until two o’clock in the morning, looking at my P&L like, “What?” And, margins and all of these things that you’re…

You have this dream for owning a CPG company, you’ve got this wonderful idea. It’s all the other things that come with it to build the house. It can be very overwhelming, and that’s why I’m grateful that we’re here and we get to do this and work with you guys. So, it’s a wonderful experience overall.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I mean, CPG is such a robust industry. There’s so many moving pieces and parts. So, I’m curious though, what happened to your pie company? Did you sell it and that’s when you got in to your PR agency?

Emily Kealey:
I had kids.

Alison Smith:
That’ll do it.

Emily Kealey:
We had kids and I think it was… After that you… Waking up at four o’clock in the morning to go to the kitchen to bake pies is not really realistic.

I was very, very pregnant. Thanksgiving, the last year we had the company. I was like eight months pregnant and I’m walking around the kitchen so huge and I’m standing so far back trying to roll dough, and I was like, “This isn’t going to work. This is not going to work.”

Alison Smith:
Like, not physically possible.

Emily Kealey:
It was impossible. I didn’t know. And once again, I’m so grateful for that time of my life and it’s when you think about those things of starting a company and ending a company and the lessons you learned from that, it can be really heartbreaking too, right?

And, I think a lot of people in CPG experience that. It’s a very real experience that you have, but you never give up on the entrepreneurial spirit that you have, and I’ve never ever given up on that and that’s why I think I’ll always have that.

And, I’m grateful for that. My husband’s like what is known as a corporate athlete, and I don’t know how he does it you guys, like he is a machine and he’s so great at what he does and I was like, “I would just die on the vine if I was in corporate…” Because, it’s just not my spirit.

So, I think that’s why I love working with the members at Naturally Austin, because there is that spirit, right? And, you’re going to have peaks and valleys.

You’re going to go through all of this. You’re going to have what’s… what I don’t even like to call failures.

It’s not even a failure. It’s just it’s always a learning lesson and you’ll learn something from it.

I learned so many great things from that, owning that pie company.

But, I really wanted to get back into marketing and PR, because I actually really missed it, but I wanted to kind of do it my own way. Because once again, entrepreneurs are like my way or the highway.

So, I started my own agency and the reason why I started my own agency was I really wanted to champion everybody. But, the PR industry is heavily women… full of women, right? It’s more women focused.

And, so I wanted to help create a place and a haven for women to come and be themselves, do great work and have a work-life balance. That was the most important thing to me because I think public relations people and you guys, as you know, it’s a lot.

And, I know that women also carry the burden and of a lot of other things. We carry that weight too.

So, I wanted to provide a place that you could come in and do great work. And, I think what was most interesting when I had the agency was I didn’t require… This is back when we had offices and you could go into them, but it was like, I never required that you come into the office.

I was like, “You can work from… I don’t care what you do. You can get work from anywhere. You can go work from Paris. I don’t care. Just figure it out and do your job.”

But, every day everyone showed up to the office and every day, that’s because we love being together. Because, there wasn’t that expectation. It wasn’t this kind of like drill sergeant which it can feel like sometimes. And, it never felt like that.

So, I’m really proud of that aspect because we really worked together as a family and everyone showed up every day. And, that was just so great to see.

But, we really did focus on CPG as well and helping CPG brands get off the ground. Then, I took that knowledge from owning the pie company and from working at the larger agencies and apply that to these brands who are trying to get their start.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. How else did you set the tone for work-life balance? I mean, I think that’s so important, like you said, for not only agency owners, but business owners and CPG and whoever.

Emily Kealey:
Yeah. It was really one of those things that… Like in our handbook that I have it was, welcome to the team.

You may not be here. We love to have you for the rest of your life. We also know that you’re probably not going to, so let’s get you the things that you need to get, the experience you need to get to move on.

If you want to go work at ESPN, let’s find a way to make that happen for you. Very realistic about people and how people work. And, our core values were really based off that idea, that ethos that we have this work-life balance and that we are one team, one dream.

And, I believe in doing great work, but I also believe in turning work off, very French about it, I guess. Like, you kind of… What is it? You don’t work to live… Or, you don’t live to work, you work to live kind of thing. And so, I really want to embrace that.

And, I think once you set that tone in your handbook when you’re onboarding and every day you set that tone and if you’re having a bad day, take the day off, take the day off and go to the park or go wherever you need to go.

But, I don’t expect you to show for me a hundred percent every day because you’re a human and that’s what we’re supposed to embrace.

So, I was really proud of that and I’m still… I saw them, all of my old employees a few weeks ago, and it still felt like just family, like you just… They’ll always be family to us together. So, it’s great to see.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, such a great point. We aren’t machines and if we work ourselves out hard, I mean, we’re going to get burnt out. So I think-

Emily Kealey:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
It’s a good point.

Emily Kealey:
And, I don’t want burnt out. I’m like a very utopia. I want just happy workers.

Karin Samelson:
I love it. That’s such good advice for everybody, not just agency owners or… But, I love most of all with that story about you, how important it is as an agency owner, as a consultant to CPG businesses to have that experience, you had the… You did it, right?

So many consultants I find are just consulting based on what they know through research, but firsthand experience is so different. So, I think that’s super powerful and so helpful for the people that you’re working with.

Emily Kealey:
And, I would say my recommendation is to view our consultant. You’ve never been inside a kitchen, ask your clients if you can go into the kitchen and just observe. I was at Wunderkeks yesterday, the cookie company.

Oh my, god! They’re killing it first of all. But, they’re like seas of boxes and people are just churning out these delicious… It was like Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory in there, even watching that experience and us watching Luis and Hans do the magic that they do, getting to see the background like how…

the behind the scenes is really vital. You don’t have to go work in a kitchen. You don’t have to, but going in and learning more about your clients and their day to day and the struggles that they have with production and everything else is really important for you to, I think provide empathy.

I think emotional, the EQ there is really important for your clients. They are doing a lot.

And, you have to be able to understand where they’re coming from of, “Hey, we didn’t get the garlic powder we needed and now we’re on delay for two weeks and I can’t get products to retail.”

You should be asking those questions of how they’re doing in their whole 360 life, not just what applies to marketing and PR or social or wherever it is, you really have to look at the whole ecosystem and understand that.

And, that’s your job to understand like production delays, supply chain. Like, “Oh my gosh, HR is doing…” All these things that happen, that’s really your job and being a trusted advisor to your client.

That’s how I’ve always seen it, which is why also I love to shop at Naturally Austin because I get to go talk about all those things with members and try to… If I can’t help, someone in our ecosystem can.

Alison Smith:
Definitely. And, that brings us to our next point. How did you get led to Naturally Austin? How did that come to be?

Emily Kealey:
Yeah. So, I was with my agency and I was kind of just… I was just me kind of there doing my own thing, helping out CPG companies and the opportunity came up. I know Genevieve Gilbreath over at Springdale Ventures and she’s like, “Hey, there is an opportunity here, would you like to explore it and learn more?”

And she was like, you know it’s an executive director position and I was like, “I don’t think I’m ready for that.” I was like, “That feels really big.”

And she was like, “I think that you’re going to be okay.” And, I’m so thankful that I did. So, interviewed and was able to take on the position in February of this year.

Then COVID hit and that was… I was brand new to the job in February and then I had COVID and I was really sick and then… But, that’s how I kind of got my start was just-

Alison Smith:
In the middle of a pandemic.

Emily Kealey:
Middle of the pandemic. Got through it, but I was thankful because I had known Gen for quite some time and I’d actually known people inside, like Albert Swantner, Felipe Vega, just because if you are in the CPG space here in Austin it’s very incestuous, correct?

And, overall it may feel like a big industry, but it’s actually quite small. And so I was able to… I knew a bunch of people that were already there on the board and so I was really grateful for this opportunity because it’s led to this. We’ve gotten through 2020, but it has been a challenging year for sure.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. So tell us, like what is your day to day look like as executive director? Just a breakdown.

Emily Kealey:
It’s a wide array, but you know what I like about it too, is that it kind of feels like a PR firm to be honest. It’s like when you have multiple clients, it’s like, I’m going to do this for mangoes, this for [Lam 00:18:04], this for Friskies, this for TurboTax, this for…

And, you’ve got all these items that you have to do. Same concept though, is that you just have different stakeholders, you have different clients, right?

So, it may be having a sponsorship call, a fundraising call, a member call, setting up programming, setting up an event virtually by this point and then kicking off major initiatives like we’re doing with minority owned initiative which is a big thing that we’re actually about to unveil here next week, so get ready.

But, we’re really fortunate that we’ve had sponsors come on and already, and they’re supporting this initiative that supports minority owned companies and CPG because we really, really want to, as I look around the room and on Zooms, it doesn’t feel very good.

And, we know that there’s companies out there that need the support and that we want to support, provide these resources and education and networking for them.

We just need to go find them and hopefully get them into the system. And, then what’s really exciting is that it’s in partnership with SKU and this accelerator is going to be a little bit different. SKU actually usually takes equity out of the companies.

What we’re actually going to be doing is providing funding for these companies, which is wonderful because as we kind of approached this, we knew that networking and resources was one facet and then funding was the second. So, we flipped…

We’re hopefully answering a lot of… are helping a lot of those issues that minority owned companies are finding.

So, I’m really excited about where Naturally Austin is heading. We were working in a women in CPG in March. We’re working on sustainability for the whole year.

We’re working on minority owned and then we’re doing a youth in CPG and I have two children, two beautiful girls who are also… One has an entrepreneurial spirit that’s like, “I’m just going to go make all these products.”

And I’m like, “Great. You can be a part of this program that we’re doing.” But it’s in partnership with Boss Club and it’s going to be supporting youth who want to do things in CPG. And, I cannot wait to kick that one off. I’m so excited to see all these little kids do stuff.

Just like, “This is going to be so fun.” So, that’s what we’re working on and I think that’s really… I’m really excited to see where Naturally Austin is headed because it’s heading in a really, really cool direction and the growth there is just, I think can be… is just unstoppable if we do it right. So, I’m excited.

Alison Smith:
You are one busy lady. I’ll just say that.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. Is your team growing right now?

Emily Kealey:
It’s growing and we’re actually [inaudible 00:20:33] an announcement. Yes, it is growing. Thank goodness.

Yeah, because it’s been me and an intern and thankfully we have a really wonderful board who steps in and helps lot because otherwise…

Well, I’m already gray anyway, but I’d be very gray guys. But we have a really great board that does a lot and steps in like Aimy Steadman, Genevieve Gilbreath, Philippe Vega, Albert Swantner. They really step in and do…

And, Jennifer Cobb Moynihan is another one who’s just… They all step in and do great work. So, very lucky to have a board that works with us and with the staff.

But, our staff will be getting a little bit more robust. We’re actually making an announcement by next week in our newsletter.

Alison Smith:
Exciting.

Emily Kealey:
Yeah, I know. That’s fun. I know.

Karin Samelson:
Awesome. Sorry, I’m on mute a lot right now because my dogs are going crazy and we’ll cut this out.

Emily Kealey:
No worries.

Karin Samelson:
[crosstalk 00:21:27]. So, what is your favorite aspect of getting to work with so many CPG brands right now?

Emily Kealey:
I’ve always loved helping people. That’s why I chose PR because I like being really creative and I like thinking outside the box and I feel that that kind of marries those two together.

So, I’ve always just really liked helping people and I love watching other people succeed, especially in an industry like CPG, which is just so challenging from the get-go.

So, that’s why I love this job because when I get a phone call and be like, “Hey, I need help doing this.” I’m like, “I got it. I got it for you.” And, they’re like, “Thank you. This actually helped saved my bacon.”

I think that’s my favorite part and getting to really help entrepreneurs and just watching people grow, like I was saying about Wunderkeks yesterday. I walked in there and I was like, “You got to be kidding me. This is insane, the growth that they’re going through.”

And, you think about Golden Ratio Clark over there, like watching them grow the way they are is just so fun to watch because it’s success. So, I think that’s great.

But, I think the more success we have in Austin… I do believe that Austin is really primed to be one of the top CPG cities in the country. I think that we are getting there really quickly and I think it’s really cool to watch how our industry is really growing up. It’s pretty cool to watch. So, that’s my favorite part, helping people.

Alison Smith:
In your opinion I mean, how important is community? So, Naturally Austin is the Austin community for CPG business owners. Like, how important is that for people to join into the Naturally Austin community or otherwise?

Emily Kealey:
Like I said, I mean, like I mentioned with like I owned or co-owned the pie society, I wish I would’ve had this resource when I owned the company.

I wish I would’ve had a place to go to and I view… Thinking about joining it’s $65 a year, which is pretty cool. I think it feels pretty affordable, but what you get out of it. And, I will say it’s really what you make of it too.

I mean, come to the webinars and when we have in-person events again, which is soon, hopefully.

When we have those again, come make those networking and… Make those networking opportunities. We are launching out a new networking webinars series in 2021, but I think that just come on and come check it out, come to the webinars, come meet us.

And, then I think getting to meet other CPGs, like what we did with Combo Loco in October, where we asked our members to pair up with each other and tell us why they [inaudible 00:24:11] Combo Loco with them. Frankly, it’s like a week a nod to H-E-B’s Combo Loco.

What we do with that I thought was really cool because we saw them be creative and work together, and they made these connections that I don’t think could have been made before. And, they’re still doing things together.

Like, now they might have a retail play that they can go to H-E-B with. Like, they wouldn’t have thought of before. So, that’s really our job is to make those connections and provide that education. This has been a challenging year to do so, but watching the numbers come together and then I think make magic happen has been just wonderful to see.

So, they’ve all been in good spirits about it, and I’m really thankful for that.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, that was a great event by the way, Combo Loco. And, it was really nice to see it instead of thinking that you’re in competition with each other.

I mean, connecting and helping each other grow is maybe the more successful way to go about things. So, I really love what y’all did there.

Emily Kealey:
Thank you. And, I think that my biggest thing is that CPG is a blood sport everywhere else, because it is, as we know, it can be highly competitive, but Naturally Austin it’s about collaboration.

We are all about that. It’s not meant to be a blood sport under our tent. You can go do that outside of our tent, but inside of tent we need all of you guys to really kind of play along together and get to know each other because we’re stronger together if we can collaborate and be as like one unit.

I think that that’s going to be really powerful for not just yourselves, individually, but as overall as the CPG industry and really putting ourselves as a bright spot in the CPG map across the US.

Karin Samelson:
Absolutely yes. Yeah. It’s so important, I mean, your struggles as a CBG owner are probably very similar to other people’s struggles as a CBG owner. So that community is so important.

I feel like really Naturally Austin is so supportive. It’s kind of nuts. And, especially with that Combo Loco, it was like direct competition, but everybody was rooting each other on. I thought that was so nice.

Emily Kealey:
Yeah, it’s pretty cute. It was really cute. I got a little teary. I was like the heart of this event and this mission that we set for us to do really came out in that video and I was super happy about how it turned out. We got a lot of great response.

I think H-E-B was really happy about it too because it really had a good heart to it. And, that was the point of it was that we show the heart of our members. So, that was the goal.

Karin Samelson:
Very cool. Well, obviously events have shifted so much. You guys used to do so many amazing in-person events. Hopefully it’s on the horizon, soon enough we’ll get back to it. But like the Combo Loco, have there been any events that you’ve had to pivot to online that you really found to be successful?

Emily Kealey:
Every single one of them. I just remember like in March when everything started shutting down and then I got sick and I was like, “What are we going to do? What are we going to do?” We were sitting on his couch like, “Oh, my gosh. I don’t even know that organization yet.” I was like, “I don’t even know how all of this works yet and”-

Karin Samelson:
Right. Because, when did you start with them?

Emily Kealey:
February.

Karin Samelson:
That is so nuts.

Emily Kealey:
I know. I was-

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Thrown in.

Emily Kealey:
I just remember telling my husband, I was like, “This is going to be really interesting.” Because, it was kind of-

Alison Smith:
I love that you say interesting instead of difficult.

Emily Kealey:
I knew that we-

Alison Smith:
Good mind shift.

Emily Kealey:
I think we knew that we would work it out, and I think it’s from 20 years of doing this that you know it’s not going to be difficult, you know it’s going to be interesting. And I think if you position it as it’s not… nothing is difficult.

Things are just really interesting, correct? And, sometimes the best things come out of adversity and this was obviously a big mountain to climb of how do you organize these things when people so heavily rely on in-person events and really cherish them.

And so, I think through virtual happy hours, the joint when we did with SKU, that one was, I think also hilarious because there was booze involved and watching people have so much fun in these breakout rooms was hilarious to me. I have not laughed that hard.

And, I think everyone also really needed a release. You get on these webinars and you have to feel really polished and you’re wearing jogging pants below and-

Alison Smith:
Right.

Emily Kealey:
[crosstalk 00:28:36] like, I’m literally doing right now you guys.

Alison Smith:
It’s fine.

Emily Kealey:
You guys, like sick. Like, it’s fine. This is like a maternity shirt actually, but I still love it. But, I think that being able to provide safe spaces to relax and network was still really important and that’s why with the virtual happy hour and then the Combo Locos was really important.

We’ve got a lot of key learnings from this year and so that’s why programming has been a shift. It still will be virtually obviously. I also don’t see… We will be moving to in-person events in the fall. We have a big fall event.

That’s going to be massive, but our three-year anniversary is going to be a virtual happy hour. Because our three years is coming up in March and we know that March is still not going to be set, but I also don’t ever see events not being hybrid anymore.

I think we are continuously going to have in-person and virtual events together now. We don’t think it’s ever going to go away. I think it’s going to be the new norm, especially in 2021.

Karin Samelson:
Yeah. So, sign up for Nationally Austin y’all. It’s fun.

Emily Kealey:
It is fun. [crosstalk 00:29:36]

Alison Smith:
Yeah. No long story. Sign up.

Emily Kealey:
It’s super fun. I think that the way we looked at it there some… [inaudible 00:29:41] Duswalt Epstein over at UT and she runs the CPG program there and she is amazing.

The way we’ve always put it as like, I think… UT is obviously a university, but UT is maybe like high school and actually Austin is college and SKU’s like PhD.

We’re lucky to have this ecosystem of the lifecycle of an entrepreneur where it starts with where you are in college, moves you into here at Naturally Austin or this like larger tent that’s meant to be like a really familial fun place to be and then SKU’s where you go get your PhD and you come out as like a doctorate of CPG.

So, I think that’s how we like to position it as like this three legged table.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. Well-

Karin Samelson:
Well, and affordable for the most part-

Alison Smith:
I know.

Karin Samelson:
[crosstalk 00:30:29].

Emily Kealey:
Exactly. Right. You’re welcome.

Alison Smith:
Austin’s CPGers are lucky. Yeah. So, big question. What would be your best piece of advice for a small CPG business owner?

Emily Kealey:
Oh, dear.

Alison Smith:
If you had to give them one thing.

Emily Kealey:
One thing. So, the thing I always told our CPG brands whenever they first joined on in the agency was you need to get your messaging and your branding down.

Your messaging has to be solid and I should be able to point at everyone on your team, even if it’s two people and ask exactly who you are and you both should be able to say the same thing pretty much. You really need to make…

And, by branding, I do mean personas, your target audience. You really need to know that and I think a sharp brand, and that’s where I would start. If you don’t have that, and you can have a great product and everything else, but if you don’t have…

The way I see it is like you have a really pretty framework of a house, but if you choose really crappy looking brick, it’s not going to work. So, everything has to be like that Curb Appeal, right? And, you have to be able to…

So, you have to know your audience, your audiences and what they do, where they go, who they talk to.
And, thankfully with you guys and the knowledge you have on social media, that’s very easy to find.

But, I think that setting those personas is really, really, really, really, really key. That’s the first thing I pushed was, you know your personas, because if you don’t know those…

You guys know what personas are. Sorry. I should try to explain what personas are.

Alison Smith:
Yeah, explain. Yeah.

Emily Kealey:
The personas are me. So, think about me like I’m a… When people target moms.

Like a mom’s age, 35 to 45, 2.5 kids, household income of X amount, she reads the New York Times, Buzzfeed. She watches The Right Stuff and The Undoing on HBO. I know, right?

Alison Smith:
It’s so good.

Emily Kealey:
That was intense. But, she loves Chris Evans and Marvel, but whatever it is, you’ve got to find your people and how your product helps those people. And, you can have multiple personas, like my husband’s a big tech dork and he uses tech terms that I don’t understand any of them, but he gets targeted with these things and he buys these things and like, “What did we buy today?”

And he said, “Well, I bought Cat 6 cable.” I’m like, “Don’t know what that is. That’s cool.” But he’s super excited, right? Because he’s like, “I got Cat 6 cable.” And I’m like, “Fabulous.”

So, thinking of those personas where David shops versus where I shop and what is important to him versus me, it’s really important and that your product specifically supports them and helps them either enhance their lives, helps their lives, anything it does to better that persona is really, really important to set down.

Because, then everything you do around it, from like your brand personality exercise to your messaging fits in with that person and it really has to resonate with them because otherwise you are not set up for success.

Alison Smith:
So, what are some of your tips for brands to really define and hone in on their customer personas?

Emily Kealey:
Well, yeah when you think about like… I think about, like there’s a brand here in Austin called Chinook Seedery, and sunflower seeds are a fascinating subculture, I will.

Like, there’s an affinity for sunflower seeds. And, I remember my mom actually used to eat sunflower seeds. I’ll never forget she had David’s sunflower seeds and she would eat them.

And, if you have an affinity for it, there’s a passion for it. And so as we’re looking at the people that gravitated towards Chinook, because they’ve done such a great job building up their audience, I was like, this is the most fascinating group of people I’ve ever seen.

Because, there is this [inaudible 00:34:24] for it.

So, really looking at… And, you guys know this, looking at like Instagram, who’s following you and who’s tagging you and who’s all this other stuff, looking at the ecosystem that surrounds it.

And, I think looking at what’s adjacent to your brand, that they will latch onto as well. So this culture was Yeti tumblers, Yeti… like fishing, hunting, outdoors, really… Like sports, outdoor sports, baseball is one.

Baseball was obviously the given, right? Because, sunflower seeds and baseball are best friends, but when you start to expand out into the ecosystem, we started to see there’s a huge culture that was actually really had an affinity for sunflower seeds outside of baseball.

And, we thought it was a cold audience, but actually was a hot audience. We got to it. Like this hunting culture was also… I was like, “This is fascinating to me.”

That we found it and then once you start talking to them and you start doing influencer campaigns and all the stuff you guys do, it was a remarkable Hubble that took off.

So, I think that that’s what you really, really got to think about is finding those people and finding who is going to resonate with your product and making sure you really hit them and hit them hard.

I’m just trying to think of things like in my life that I have… Like, a main state that I have, but I’ll never get rid of. There’s some things I’m never going to not do as a mom.

Like, I’m just always going to have these certain products in my house that I will never get rid of because I’m a mom and it’s been a dependable product. So there’s just things you got to think about and how it really enhances your target audiences’ lives.

Karin Samelson:
I love the advice to not only just look at your direct…

what makes sense, what’s the obvious, but look at things that are adjacent to your brand and make multiple personas. There are so many people, so many different kinds of people that are going to buy your product, so you shouldn’t only have one, we call them customer avatars, personas, all the same thing.

That’s so smart. So, without playing favorites here, what are some really amazing CPG brands in Austin and beyond that you think are just like killing it right now and who we could be inspired by at the moment?

Emily Kealey:
Yes. So definitely not favorites. I have no favorites.

I really make that super clear that there’s absolutely no favorites here, but I do think, like I said, Wunderkeks, I said Golden Ratio. There is YaYa Tea, which has gotten across like sprouts everywhere and [Rachel’s 00:36:49] there is killing it.

There’s obviously any seven from Beatbox Beverages and Future Proof. I’m so impressed with what they’re doing over there and the success that they’ve had and there’s… What was the other one I was thinking of? Oh, Stroop Club waffles, who I just love.

I think they’re doing a really amazing job. Meli’s Monster Cookies. If you haven’t had those.

Karin Samelson:
Ooh, I’ve never heard of that.

Emily Kealey:
Oh, my gosh. They’re so good. And, I love the team over there. I hope she’s listening because I just love them so much. I love everyone equally, but I just [crosstalk 00:37:20].

Alison Smith:
No favorites.

Emily Kealey:
There’s no favorites. But, thinking of overall growth and just out there, Disco is another one, the brand here. Preppy products is another one that’s just killing it with their teenage focused line. There’s a new line here that I had known for quite some time.

They used to be Primal Pit Paste, and now they’re Pretty Frank and it’s called hey Pretty Frank. And they’re a great brand and I really… I actually use a lot of their hand sanitizers and stuff. They’re doing a great job. We just have such a really diverse ecosystem.

Oh, there’s another one called Gratsi Wine. It’s a brand new red table wine and I’m really digging that wine over there. It’s really great.

So there’s just so much, I mean, I could probably go on for like 85 years about all of our members that are just… Boozy Bites is another one. Like she’s also like… I just think about her growth and it’s just nuts to watch her and they’re also really fun, the Boozy Bites are really fun.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I’m definitely going to check out the Gratsi Wines. I’ve had Boozy Bites.

Emily Kealey:
They are at Tom’s Market right now. Tom’s Market on Barton Springs, but they’re also one of my favorite-

Alison Smith:
Nice. It’s almost a weekend.

Emily Kealey:
[crosstalk 00:38:33]. Gratsi Wine.

Alison Smith:
Yeah. I mean, we just think it’s so important to look at these brands that are killing it and dissect as a smaller brand or even a bigger brand and dissect and learn from that. So, thank you for sharing.

Emily Kealey:
Oh, there’s another one, [Afia 00:38:50] Foods is the other one. She’s-

Alison Smith:
What is it?

Emily Kealey:
Afia Foods. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. She’s also over there. They got into Walmart, I think just now-

Alison Smith:
Oh, nice.

Emily Kealey:
It’s like something crazy. Yeah. Our little… Not little, our big little CPG members are just out there slinging and banging so I’m so proud of them.

Alison Smith:
So, what are some of the biggest challenges though that you’re seeing with your Naturally Austin CPG brands? Two part question, how can they overcome these challenges?

Emily Kealey:
I think the biggest thing that we’re seeing and that’s where… If you look at the Boulder ecosystem can take something from their playbook is production and storage and all of that.

We need more production. And I remember even with my pie company, trying to find a commercial kitchen to make something in, thankfully we got Joy Chevallier’s cook snuck over there. We have a lot of commercial kitchens. There’s Max with Wingman Kitchens that does stuff.

But, I think that it can be more. Like I remember one time I was talking to somebody, I forget who it was. This is a long time ago. And, she’s like, “I need an enrober.”

And, I was like, “A what now girl? What’d you need?” She said an enrober. So, it was the thing that covers… it takes chocolate and covers that thing that you need covered in chocolate, but it does it in a consistent manner. But, she’s like, “I’m flying to Orlando tomorrow to go purchase a $15,000 enrober.”

I was like, no CPG company is going to be able to do anything if they have to go buy a $15,000 one piece of machine to make your product work. That is where I highly, heavily and one of the things I’m championing across the board is production… places to produce, places to store, cold storage, just overall storage overall production needs. We need to have more of it.

I think Michael [Brandon 00:40:47] from Michelangelo’s just built one of the ground rock, which is a huge coal storage space. We need like 24 more of those and I think we need was more of that. So, I think the production side is where I just don’t want to see our members…

Like, if you need an enrober for two days a week, you know what I mean? But, you’re having to go by this or you’re having to go send it outside of Austin.

I do know some that produce outside of Austin too. I think that that would also help our local economy if we could help keep the jobs here or have opportunities for growth there and create those jobs here with the production piece of it. So, that’s the part I think we’re missing and that’s really hard to overcome.

It’s like someone needed a bottler the other day because their bottler was… Oh, someone needed another aluminum can maker because aluminum is short right now because of COVID and it’s like, “I don’t have anybody, who do I go to?”

So, that gets really complicated and that can hurt your business. So, I think just more of that is going to be really valuable for the industry as a whole, for us to grow and continue to thrive.

Alison Smith:
Well, if there’s any entrepreneurs listening, we need production, probably a profitable business in Austin.

Emily Kealey:
Yeah. Can you please go make this happen? And, that’s really what I want to try to champion. And, I think there are some people who are heavily thinking about this right now of what the ecosystem needs to continue to grow.

Karin Samelson:
And, that’s so good to know. And, I loved your advice earlier and I’m taking it into account, if you are a consultant, if you are helping CPG businesses grow to know all facets of the business. I did not know that that would be a top challenge right now, but it makes so much sense. Nobody can afford a $15,000 piece of machinery and… Where can we find that? Where can we share that? Yeah, so that’s interesting.

Emily Kealey:
And, do you set up success and how do you make the… how do these people make those investments that ensures there’s an ROI there? Of course, there’s a business there, but I think it’s doable because once again, I am like this utopia. I think that we can figure it out. So, that’s my dream.

Karin Samelson:
I love it. I can’t wait to see you figure it out.

Emily Kealey:
I will.

Karin Samelson:
No doubts.

Emily Kealey:
Somehow, some way.

Karin Samelson:
Well, we talked about your best advice and I love that you were focusing on messaging and branding and knowing your customer personas, but what are some other things that you think CPG brands should focus on to really experience some of this growth that we’re seeing with the brands getting into Walmart and… Yeah. What should they focus on?

Emily Kealey:
Finances. You should know your P&L like the back of your hand. At all times, you should know your numbers. When someone asks you anything about your P&L like that, it should literally roll off.

I mean, that’s the best thing to me. That was the thing I learned with the pie society and my husband is a finance guy and he was like, “You have to know your…”

He owned the flight school here in Austin. So, he owned like eight airplanes or something crazy, and like flew people and taught people how to fly.

So, he was used to owning a business too. And, watching my father who works in the gas business, that was… I mean, he got a P&L daily report every day. And, he would look at his numbers every morning was the first thing he did.

The second thing is look at your competitors. I think you need to know who’s a competition in your space. If you don’t think you have competition, you’re wrong, you do.

And, I think you need to take a look at that and you need to be reading… I also highly encouraged my clients to… I would always send our clients articles like every day and I be like, “Look, who’s coming up on the horizon. Look who just got $175 million in funding. Just, look who just did this…

Really, need be paying attention to who’s out there and what newspapers are really getting the coverage out there. Here’s a trend piece for you. Here’s how this relates to your business.”

You really have to stay on top of that as well.

Karin Samelson:
Really quick on that. So, how are you finding all of that news? Like, what’s the best way to find that kind of news?

Emily Kealey:
Definitely Google, just Google Alerts. I think it’s also… I don’t know if you guys subscribe to the [Eros 00:44:57] [inaudible 00:44:57] reporter out. It’s free.

I take a look at Eros because that’s always a good, I think crystal ball to see what people are starting to talk about.

And, I’m like, “Oh, it looks like there’s a lot of topics coming up about X.” Definitely we are in a year COVID so that’s changed, but typically I would look at those and be like, “Hey, there’s a lot of people talking about at home testing.” If we think about Everlywell.

“There’s a lot of people talking about at home testing right now.” Obviously right now, they’re really talking about it. But, back in the day, it was also like, this is really becoming a thing, like this is really something we should think about.

And, how do you relate to that if you happen to fit in with the conversations happening amongst media? So, I highly recommend doing that.

And, I think that’s kind of the two biggest thing is finances and keeping a part of trends and making sure that you really are on top of both those things. And, if you can’t have somebody… Set Google Alerts.

You can set up Google Alerts to your competitors and your industry and anything that’s adjacent to your industry and you can just scan it.

Or, if you can’t scan it, get like your niece to do it or something like do a summary just as so you know what’s going on. Because, it’s really important that you keep your ear to the ground as well.

Karin Samelson:
And, it’s free.

Emily Kealey:
Yeah. It’s free.

Karin Samelson:
It’s free. You just set it up. Yeah.

Emily Kealey:
It’s free. And, I would say really determine if you are going to be D-to-C or if you’re going to be brick and mortar.

Obviously that has changed right now too, but retail is still going strong. Make a decision on where you want to go and plot that out, don’t just put it up there. And, this goes back to having a good brand and brand experience.

Once you’ve got that settled, once you’ve got your finances in order and you know where you stand then create that online experience. What does that look like to you? And, if you’re going to do retail, how is that different?

If you’re going to do Amazon, it’s a large, large lift to go into Amazon. You can’t just put something out there and you should not do that. Don’t do that. So, I think there’s a lot of things to consider and carving out those paths.

If you can’t hire someone, go find a mentor, come to Naturally Austin, go find somebody. There’s a lot of people who will help you and give you good advice and that’s really what that’s for.

Like, I can’t hire a PR person. That’s cool. You can find a lot of people who will definitely help you out, including me. I’ll tell you how to write a press release. I’ll take a look at your press release for you, but there’s plenty of people who are here to help.

And, if you feel alone, you’re not alone. And, I think that’s the thing to remember. There are a lot of people who are willing to help you out and provide guidance and find those mentors, find those people, find the people that have not only been successful.

Find the people who have admitted to failure. I like learning from them more than I learn… like learning from these. And, I really try to shy away from entrepreneur porn.

I think that gets really dangerous for people. While I think success is really great and we can put these people on a pedestal, they did a lot of work to get there.

And, I think the thing to remember too is like, “Gosh, this brand just like happened overnight.” I’m like, “No, it didn’t. Y’all that brand’s been around for 10 years.” Yeah, you know what I mean? Really, don’t even start with the-

Karin Samelson:
And, they had two other successful brands before that.

Emily Kealey:
And, they got billions behind them.

Alison Smith:
Right.

Emily Kealey:
So, I think that this entrepreneur porn gets very, very, very dangerous. I try to really shy people away from that. This is blood, sweat, tears, duct tape. And, it’s not for those who don’t want to really hit it and get it.

So, I really think find people who you look up to and not only ask them for their successes, ask them where they failed, ask them where they failed over and over and over and over again, because that’s where you’re going to learn too, because you are going to fail. It’s going to happen.

And, I don’t like to call it failures, but you’re going to have valleys. But, how do you get through those valleys and how do you overcome it? So, that’s really important to remember. Then, find people that can help you out.

Karin Samelson:
Such great advice, Emily. It’s inspiring. It’s so autonomous.

I feel the same way. People get stuck in like wanting to talk to the big, big success stories and it’s just like, I don’t know how much they’re going to offer you.

Emily Kealey:
They’re not.

Karin Samelson:
Your path is nowhere near theirs, right?

Emily Kealey:
And, you’re not even the same human being. I mean, that’s the thing. And, I think that people want to replicate what people’s success looks like and that’s a very deadly thing to do because then you negate who you are as a person for your own success, because then you’re starting to take…

You’re like leaning on a crutch. Like, “Oh my gosh, well, this guy did it this way. So, I have to go do it this way.” He did that 10 years ago. You know what I mean?

And, he’s a different person. You go be your own person, take that knowledge and then take the pieces out of it and throw the rest away because you are your own person with your own brilliant brain and you can do this too.

So, I think that just gets dangerous. I try to really get people out from, I think, doing… from thinking that that’s what they have to do in this entrepreneur porn really or speed.

Karin Samelson:
I got to Google that term. I’ve never heard it before.

Emily Kealey:
It’s like the… You guys were talking about with the Barbies on Instagram. Like, this doesn’t drive me… Just pop it. And this idea that you have to, but you do have to be up all night working and like, I only get four hours of sleep and like…

And I’m like, “Shut up.” You know what I mean? I’m like-

Alison Smith:
Yeah. That’s not cool.

Emily Kealey:
That’s not cool that you get four hours. I mean, if you do that’s new, but like, “Yeah, I haven’t slept in like two weeks in a global…”

And, I’m like, “Shut…” If that works for you, that’s really cool, but don’t make it a thing that other entrepreneurs feel that they have to go do.

Like, if you need 10 hours of sleep a night, girl, go get 10 hours of sleep a night. You do you and you make what’s best for you, but don’t put people on this pedestal and try to follow what they do and make it where it’s like this… It doesn’t make any sense. You know what I mean?

It really kind of drives me nuts. My husband does this. He’s probably over here laughing at me. Because, I get off my little soapbox and I’m like, “I’m just so tired of all these people.” I just want people to really respect who they are and find the best path for them and that’s what I’ve always believed in and that’s what I always try to champion.

That’s why I’m so thankful at Naturally Austin I get to do that because it’s really important that you respect who you are and your dreams and taking those lessons from others and then applying it to yourself and going out and being your best self and what you think is best.

Alison Smith:
That’s a great message to leave everyone with. Really, Emily from Naturally Austin this has been such a pleasure to talk to you.

Emily Kealey:
You too, guys.

Alison Smith:
If you guys don’t know about Naturally Austin, go check it out and join ASAP. It is one of Karin’s and I’s top favorite communities to be a part of. So, go check Naturally Austin out. And Emily, are there any links or anything that you want to leave anyone with?

Emily Kealey:
Yeah.

Alison Smith:
How can they contact you?

Emily Kealey:
Yeah. So, it’s naturallyaustin.org is the website and you can always email me directly. I’m Emily, E-M-I-L-Y @naturallyaustin.org.

I’m always happy to take calls. I think you guys know I’ll talk to anybody and I’ll talk to a brick wall. But yeah, I’ll talk to anybody. You guys let me know and I’m happy to answer any questions you might have.

Alison Smith:
Thank you again.

Emily Kealey:
Awesome. Thank you, guys.

Karin Samelson:
UMAI Social Circle is a CPG agency driven podcast based out of Austin, Texas. We’re excited to share more behind the scene insights, chats with industry leaders and whatever else we learn along the way.

Follow us on Instagram at UMAI Marketing or check out our website, UMAImarketing.com. Catch you back here soon.