#49: Executing a winning brand refresh with Meghan and Sam

 

Alison Smith: [0:59]

Welcome to the UMAI Social Circle where we talk consumer goods tips to help business owners and marketers grow. We’re Alison and Karin, co-founders of UMAI Marketing. We’re being joined by Meghan Martin and Sam Laubach, our new strategy director and creative director leading our branding and packaging efforts here at UMAI. How are y’all?

 

Sam Laubach: [1;20]

Good. Thanks for having us.

 

Meghan Martin: [1:22]

Heaven.

 

Alison Smith: [1:24]

Welcome. This is our second episode as part of a little series to dive into Sam and Meghan. If you guys are interested in hearing on how they got started, the brands that they’ve worked with in the past, how they started their own agency, you can listen to the episode before, episode number 48. I definitely recommend giving it a listen. But for today, we have a few questions that we want to ask y’all and wrap up this little series.

 

Karin Samelson: [1:56]

So one that we really like to ask people in all different facets of CPG, but specifically for branding and packaging reasons, what are your favorite brands currently on the shelf, either in-person shelf or online shelf, and why?

 

Sam Laubach: [2:15]

I think my all time favorite… I mean, all of the brands that I really like, I love all of their products along with their brand. I think that’s usually a big… I need to both the product and the brand itself and I think all of them are trendsetters in a way. I think that’s usually the ones that I usually gravitate towards. I would say BAGGU is definitely number one all time fave. They can do no wrong. Take all my money. Every collaboration, I’m like, “All time fave.” But I also really like Tower 28 is a new one that I’m really liking lately. And then, Graza I always love, Amika, Ghia. There’s another one. Oh, Piecework Puzzles, that’s another one that I really like. All of them I really like. They’re fun, a lot of colors, not afraid to be who they are.

 

Karin Samelson: [3:02]

Piecework Puzzles? Is it like an actual puzzle company?

 

Sam Laubach: [3:06]

Oh, yeah. They do a playlist for every puzzle they do. It’s so good. It’s so good.

 

Alison Smith: [3:10]

Love a good puzzle.

 

Karin Samelson: [3:13]

So wait, why can BAGGU do no wrong?

 

Sam Laubach: [3:17}

I feel like ever since they launched, they are so clear on who they are. It’s like every social post, every email, even new product, every collaboration, it’s so on brand for them. They’re so just clear on who they are. I think that I really like that. I really admire that because they’re current without being trendy. They don’t waver who they are at all just because a new trend comes up. If it’s social or something like that, they’ll hop on it, but it’s like they don’t change who they are; they’re not rebranding every three years. They’re just so good and I love their products. I’ll buy their products forever.

 

Karin Samelson: [3:56]

I wear the bag every day. I gave my husband my backup one. He wears it every day now, and I completely agree. It’s like anytime I get an email or an SMS, or anything from them, I instantly know it’s them, so it’s always a good sign. Meghan, what about you?

 

Meghan Martin: [4:14]

All right. I think I have a top two right now. Seed is always number one for me. First of all, the way they educate is just so great. They do such a good job of educating in a way that’s really exciting on stuff that’s not a super exciting topic, so I think they do a really great job of that. Also, their sustainability efforts I think are great and that’s a passion point of mine. So I always like to see what they’re doing and how they’re leading that. And then, my other top right now that I’ve been really looking at a lot is Wooden Spoon. I think I like the products, but also their branding’s super fun. Their copy’s super fun. The way they’ve created this whole cohesive world, they’ve just done a really great job through and through. So those are probably my top two right now.

 

Sam Laubach: [5:05]

Gander did such a good job with their rebrand. It is so good.

 

Meghan Martin: [5:10]

Yes, It’s good.

 

Sam Laubach: [5:10]

It is so unique and they’re such trendsetters.

 

Karin Samelson: [5:14]

Wait, who? Wooden Spoon?

 

Sam Laubach: [5:17]

Yeah. Gander, they’re an agency. They did their rebrand. I think it was last year or the year before. I remember when they launched, it was so good. It’s so-so good. They did such a good job.

 

Karin Samelson: [5:27]

What’s so good about it?

 

Sam Laubach: [5:33]

Looking at Wooden Spoon’s mission and values, and doing it in a way that’s different than what’s in their category. I would say their category, you get into that crunchy granola, which I would say their identity almost leans into that without going too far down that road, if that makes sense. It’s like a slight nod to it in a way that’s current. Oh, it’s so good.

 

Karin Samelson: [5:58]

So, when you Google, if someone’s trying to find a wooden spoon and I have no idea-

 

Alison Smith: [6:04]

I just got it. It took me in…

 

Karin Samelson: [6:06]

You got it? You got it? What is it?

 

Alison Smith: [6:08]

I was like… because there’s this band called Wooden Shjip, or I think it might just be Shjips. They spell it with a J so you can Google it. I was trying different variations of how you would spell… It’s woodenspoonherbs.com and-

 

Karin Samelson: [6:23]

Herbs.

 

Alison Smith: [6:24]

Yep. Dead gorgeous. I am very into this.

 

Meghan Martin: [6:30]

They’ve done such a good job of making everything consistent. All of their emails look exactly like the website. All of their social posts, everything is so through and through consistent and branded and then they left no stone unturned. So, that is I think also why they’re so high in my book too because they’ve done such a good job of just building the brand throughout every touchpoint.

 

Karin Samelson: [6:54]

A lot of their typeface, it’s so distinct.

 

Sam Laubach: [7:01]

It’s so memorable now. You look at it and you’re like, “Oh.” It’s every touchpoint then you already know it’s them. Everything is so consistent and it’s so branded.

 

Karin Samelson: [7:12]

This is going to be a really silly question, but I am really curious. How often are these typefaces created versus they just find them and buy them and custom created for the brand?

 

Sam Laubach: [7:27]

I feel like it depends on budget too like, what’s the client’s budget? Because to create a typeface is takes a lot of work and a lot of time. Agencies will do it for a specific brand. If they’re like, “I have very specific vision in mind and nothing’s even going to come close to that,” or if the client’s like, “I want full custom head to toe brand,” typeface could definitely go along with that. I feel like it’s more common now, but you still don’t see it super-super often.

 

Alison Smith: [7:56]

Meghan, your examples are so polar opposite to me at first glance, but I think that’s the beauty of what y’all’s expertise is because Seed is it’s so scientific and bare bones minimalist and education. And then, looking at Wooden Spoon Herbs, it’s words and color and illustration, but that’s important. It’s cool. Your brand is like a person. You get to decide on are they going to be the scientific doctor or are they going to be the chill herbal girl? I don’t know.

 

Meghan Martin: [8:43]

And that, I feel like a lot comes from the founder too, is I think that’s why branding can be personal in that way because you have to build something that the brand can carry out. For example, if Wooden Spoon had created this gorgeous brand and then handed it over, or if Gander had created this gorgeous brand for Wooden Spoon and then handed it over to Wooden Spoon, and they couldn’t execute it or couldn’t keep up with it because it felt too different from who they are, or how they would talk to their audience, or how they would go about it, then it would be totally lost. So that’s I think where it comes also down to getting to know the business and who they are and pulling the brand out of that. Because otherwise, you’re going to create something that has a disconnect and the audience will feel that as well, so it’s a fun process branding in that way.

 

Alison Smith: [9:36]

Awesome.

 

Sam Laubach: [9:37]

Like getting clear on what the brand wants to be known for, that’s a really big thing when you’re developing a brand. It’s like, “All right, who do you want to be in five years?” Sometimes that changes, but when you’re developing a brand, especially a really distinct visual identity, it’s like do you want to be known as this master educator, then you go this more scientific route and then everything should reflect that, or you want to be known as trendsetters like, “We don’t care. We’re just going to do whatever we want and have fun.” It really can depend.

 

Meghan Martin: [10:10]

And how much you need to do. So, for example, I think with Seed there was education on probiotic, so it’s not like it was a totally new category, but some brands will have to come out. They have to educate entirely because this is a brand new product; it’s a brand new category. It’s something people have never heard of, so they have to do a lot of education. So then, it becomes such a core pillar of the brand. So, how do you execute that in a way that’s branded I think is really interesting too because I’d say both of those, Wooden Spoon and Seed, have to do a good bit of explaining their product. So, seeing how they take such different approaches is interesting when you look at them side by side. Obviously, different categories, but still both educating in completely different ways.

 

Alison Smith: [10;58]

Could you just assume by looking at these two that the consumer is really of huge… there’s going to be a huge difference between the two? Is that the deciding factor on even if the founder or the marketing team is one way, if your end research shows that the consumer is someone totally different, how do you meld the two or decide on that?

 

Meghan Martin: [11:26]

I actually see there being some overlap. I have a Venn diagram in my head. You’d have probably someone whose way on the outskirts of one and on the other, and then there’s probably some overlap in-between, but that’s a good question. I think it’s a blend of both, the founder marketing team, the business, and the audience because both of those things have to come together to create the brand. So it’s definitely a blend of both.

 

Alison Smith: [12:01]

Well, speaking of Wooden Spoon, just you said they just had a recent rebrand. Is that right?

 

Sam Laubach: [12:10]

I think it was in the last year maybe. Maybe early this year. I can’t remember. It was pretty recent though.

 

Alison Smith: [12:16]

How can a brand decide when the right time is to invest in a branding agency or if it’s time for a rebrand?

 

Meghan Martin: [12:28]

That’s a good question. There’s a couple timing points that I would say to look out for, for when it’s time to invest in a rebrand in particular. Rebrand’s not always the answer, so I think that’s also something to touch on. But when it is time to rebrand, I think the biggest ones I would say to look at are if you’re no longer reaching or connecting with your target audience, if you’re seeing that your audience is falling off and what you’re putting out is no longer resonating. That’s a good time to look at your branding. And then if your audience has aged out also. 

 

So, for example, if you are targeting women 35 to 40 and when you started they were millennials, and now millennials have aged out of that age group, that’s not accurate. But whatever the case is, you might need to look at your branding: is it still relevant to an audience who has a totally different perspective than the age group you were talking to before? And then, if your visual identity is outdated is always a good time. If you got something that was really trendy, it’s been a few years and now that looks just not so hot anymore, that’s definitely a good time.

 

And then, the last one I’d say is my favorite because it’s probably the one we see the most often, and that is you started your business off, you got your brother’s girlfriend’s niece to design you a logo in Canva, and it was great. There is a time and a place for that, so I will never knock that. I’ll be the first one to say that there’s a time and a place for it. But now, you’ve been around for a few years; you’re trying to get into retail; you’re trying to be a little bit bigger of a business, and you have to really look at taking a step in a… leveling up is what I’m trying to say… so that you are more cohesive, more credible, you have a full brand identity as opposed to just that logo you originally got.

 

Karin Samelson: [14:22]

That brings a question that I always have to my mind where it’s like we don’t want to get too trendy with our branding. But things that you see now, and examples you see now, are technically trending, right? It’s popping up everywhere because people like it a lot and people want to purchase these products. And so, how do you avoid going too quote-unquote “trendy”? It’s just your opinion, man. It’s so hard to pinpoint what is “trendy,” so how do we avoid that so that we don’t have to do a rebrand in a couple of years?

 

Sam Laubach: [15:08]

I think there’s a fine line between being current and being trendy. I would say current is like, can you compete in the current market? What are the global design trends like bright color, lots of negative space, clean type. Those are standard markers. You can do that in any way you want, but trendy is certain styles of font, like a 70s retro font that everybody’s launching with, or certain shapes. Arches were really trending for a while, gradients, like we mentioned in the last episode. Trying to think what else.

 

There’s certain design assets that are used largely across the board, and sometimes trends you can’t escape. Sometimes it’s just like it’s everywhere you look: every product that is launching has trends everywhere. But I think there’s a fine line between being current and being trendy and I think that’s up to the agency or designer you’re working with and if they’re doing all super trendy stuff. I would say if you’re going to go in the trendy route, I would personally avoid that just in terms of investment time and money, but I think you can be current and there’s a fine line…

 

Alison Smith: [16:27]

Thank you for explaining that there is a difference, but it’s funny that Karin asked that because that’s exactly where my head was going. It seems like all the brands that everyone gets excited about, there’s a five-year cycle, maybe even less. They’re trendy. I don’t think it’s the other. I think that they’re trendy and it’s like if you have the budget, is that a good idea and just know that in five years you’re going to have to phase out and hop on the next trend in order to say current? What do y’all think about that?

 

Sam Laubach: [17:09]

If you have the money to keep doing it every five years, agencies are going to take your money. Unfortunately they will, but I would say you want to find an agency that… Again, it’s the strategy, that’s where it comes down to. It’s like, who are you? Wooden Spoon Herbs, perfect example: current. Some would argue that it’s trendy because of certain styles of font, but they did it in such a unique way where it’s like they’re able to compete in the current market, they’re memorable, they’re unique. Unfortunately it comes down to the agency and you want to make sure that they’ll really focus on the intention behind it and who are you as a brand? What is your mission? What do you want to be known for? What are your values? And then, everything’s to reflect that. You can change certain things like if you want to update your color palette in three to five years, that’s easier to do. I would not be changing your whole visual identity, your logo, all of that. That is a lot of money and time.

 

Meghan Martin: [18:07]

Every brand, if you’re going to have a long life is going to update at some point. So you will have to keep updating things. It’s an interesting question though because Gen Z loves trends. So it’s like, who are you talking to? What do they care? Do they do they want the trends all the time? Maybe they do.

 

Sam Laubach: [18:28] 

Are you going to sell your business? Are you going to sell in five years, then go for it, be trendy. It depends on, again, what’s your long-term goals?

 

Karin Samelson: [18:36]

I guess you can always pull in trends in a less brand-heavy way when it comes to social and jumping on random trends that happen, CapCut templates that happen, or trending audio, or trending… just messaging. So you can always jump on that and still reach that younger audience that is obsessed with trends without having your whole brand identity be surrounded by it, which is fun. I also was thinking about… So you were saying there’s a difference between a rebrand and a refresh. So can you detail the difference there and when it makes sense for a brand to do a refresh?

 

Meghan Martin: [19:19]

So, for example, you have to look at brands that have been around for 100+ years, so even brands like Coca-Cola, you can see their logo iterations over time and what they’ve done to change and update. They haven’t changed their identity. You know who they are. They’re still using their… I think their red is trademarked, to all of those things. But you see them make those updates to stay current so that they don’t feel dated; or sometimes they’re playing on the nostalgia, which has been really popular lately and they’re pulling back old styles, which is fun to see. But so I think that would be something that’s considered a refresh, right? So you’re just taking your existing identity, your core identity, and updating it to feel more modern.

 

What also I think you can do is, essentially, it’s not a rebrand, but you might just need to innovate or come up with fresh ideas, or a campaign to make you more relevant to remind your audience that you exist and that you’re still current with what’s happening in the world even though you’ve been around for a while. You see a lot of big brands do that where they’re going to create a campaign, so that they’re reminding the audience that they exist and that they still are important. So I think there’s a couple of different things and depending on what your problem is that you’re trying to solve, then it’ll direct what the right solution is.

 

Karin Samelson: [20:36] 

Can you think of a brand that you think needs a little bit of a refresh or a new perspective? Don’t hold back.

 

Sam Laubach: [20:47]

Pop Secret Popcorn.

 

Karin Samelson: [20:48]

What was that?

 

Sam Laubach: [20:50]

Pop Secret. We just recently bought it. I looked at it and I was like, “I think they did some sort of update.” Like here, the old school one is that darker blue and yellow. It was very old school, which I actually don’t remember, but I feel like they updated it to stay current. But I think that they could really use a fresh take, especially campaign, I think there’s just so much opportunity for it. Anyone who watches movies at home, there’s so much opportunity.

 

Karin Samelson: [21:20]

At first I was like, “Pop Secret Popcorn, what is that? What is this tiny brand?” No, this is the popcorn at home popcorn brand. Got it.

 

Meghan Martin: [21:30]

The number one.

 

Alison Smith: [21:32]

What would you do, Sam? You’ve obviously thought about this.

 

Sam Laubach: [21:35]

I don’t know. I was looking at their social and I think they just do a lot of UGC, but I’m like, “They could do so…” It’s a good way of staying current is they could do a whole campaign. I’m thinking lifestyle photography, different kinds of people like families at home. You have the movie night in of a couple. There’s so much opportunity in terms of campaign and photography and how the product fits into so many people’s lives because you don’t just always eat popcorn when you’re watching movies. Sometimes it’s like, I don’t know, some people eat popcorn as just a regular snack when you’re working or… I don’t know. There’s so much opportunity for that.

 

Karin Samelson: [22:13]

Oh gosh, their Instagram. Pop Secret…

 

Meghan Martin: [22:17]

I know, right? I know, right?

 

Karin Samelson: [22:19]

No! They obviously had an agency around. Oh, my gosh. I was scrolling and I thought this was last year because I wasn’t really scrolling for that long, but it’s 257 weeks ago. Wow, Pop Secret.

 

Alison Smith: [22:35]

Not the filters on everything.

 

Meghan Martin: [22:41]

They’re due. They’re due for a agency coming in and giving them a fresh take.

 

Alison Smith: [22:44]

This is like 10 years ago. Come on.

 

Karin Samelson: [22:49]

Oh, well we’ll be reaching out. Don’t worry. We’ll let to do some stuff. This is wild. What else you got? What other brand could use a refresh?

 

Meghan Martin: [23:03]

I have one that I have just wanted to rebrand for a year now. It’s not a product. It’s a much larger thing. It’s recycle-

 

Alison Smith: [23:15] 

I feel like you’re gossiping here. 

 

Meghan Martin: [23:17]

The entire idea of recycling.

 

Alison Smith: [23:19]

Oh, recycling as a whole?

 

Sam Laubach: [23:23]

As a concept, as a practice.

 

Meghan Martin: [23:25]

As a whole concept. It’s all a lie that they’ve fed us. None of it’s real. It’s not actually… There’s so much distrust happening between recycling and the world, and everyone. So let’s look at this. Let’s rebrand recycling. That is just as a whole concept, I would like to rebrand recycling.

 

Sam Laubach: [23:48]

She’s trying to rebrand recycling.

 

Alison Smith: [23:50]

I agree. Once I put my recycling in the recycling bin, I’m like, “Where are you going? How did I know-“

 

Karin Samelson: [23:57]

To the trash.

 

Alison Smith: [24:00]

Because I’m sure I did-

 

Meghan Martin: [24:02]

It’s all going to one place.

 

Alison Smith: [24:04]

Oh, okay. That one feels a little less critical and soloed in on a single entity.

 

Karin Samelson: [24:14]

Who thought of this recycling thing?

 

Alison Smith: [24:16]

Meghan, how would you rebrand recycling?

 

Meghan Martin: [24:21]

It would be a lot of research. I think we’d have to really look at what’s actually happening. How can we make it better? How can we build trust with the audience? What do people want to see out of recycling? You’d have to really do a lot of consumer data on this one, and also figuring out the system as a whole. So this might be a bigger fish to fry, but there’s so many issues. I think about it all the time.

 

Alison Smith: [24:51]

The whole logistics side, someone else can handle that. Right?

 

Meghan Martin: [24:59]

Yeah. And it’s messaging first. Messaging, but I think the identity could be really awesome as well and would get people interested and excited again, if you were to update the visual identity and the messaging and be like… I think you’d have to really own it. I think what they’d have to do is really be like, “Well, we messed up, so here’s…” I think they’d have to own that and then go at it from that perspective because that’s just the reality.

 

Sam Laubach: [25:28]

Let’s start from scratch. Start over.

 

Karin Samelson: [25:31]

Who do we pitch this to? Who do we even talk to?

 

Meghan Martin: [25:34]

I don’t know.

 

Meghan Martin: [25:36]

I wish I knew because I’ll probably be sending them an email.

 

Karin Samelson: [25:41]

We’re going to rebrand Pop Secret Popcorn and recycling, and we’ll get back to everybody on what that looks like soon. So how do emerging and smaller, or even larger, CPG brands, how do they find the right agency to work with for a rebrand or a refresh?

 

Sam Laubach: [26:04]

Portfolio. Well, first, I would say you can always ask for recommendations. If you have a colleague that just went through the process, you can always ask around because referrals are a big thing. But I would also say once you find, or once you have a list of a couple, go through their portfolio. You want to not only look at obviously the quality of work, but also have they worked with brands similar to yours? If you’re a cosmetic, have they worked with other cosmetic brands?

 

And then, another thing I would also is you can sometimes find reviews for agencies. Shout out to Clutch. You can literally just Google an agency name and type reviews with it. I’m a review person, so I feel like I would find that extremely helpful, but a lot of people don’t know that. And you can even go to Clutch and SearchAgent. There’s tons of agencies on there, so you can always find reviews.

 

Meghan Martin: [26:58]

The Clutch reviews are detailed from the client because we have our clients give us referrals on Clutch. We’re not involved in the process at all. So they can be as honest as they want with the Clutch representative. They put the referrals together, and the testimonials together, so those are pretty honest.

 

Sam Laubach: [27:20]

They’re good.

 

Karin Samelson: [27:21]

Nice.

 

Sam Laubach: [27:21]

Those are budget on there too.

 

Meghan Martin: [27:24]

Budget, yeah. I think also it’s trust is a big thing as well, which goes I think to looking at their creative work, but also do you trust the person that you’re working with to understand your vision? And do you trust them to understand your target audience and what you’re trying to accomplish? A lot of times if you like the work that they’ve done in the past, you’re probably going to like the work that they do for you, but that trust factor I think is big too.

 

Karin Samelson: [27:52]

Hey, we say that for all customers, for everything. You got to know, trust them, and then that’s where when you finally purchase from them. Love that. Well, is there anything else you would like to share about brands that are killing it, brands that are not so much killing it, or what to look for when you’re going to make the jump and actually start to elevate your brand again?

 

Sam Laubach: [28:24]

It’s never too late. Just do it.

 

Meghan Martin: [28:31]

That’s a good one. And you don’t have to rebrand all the time. I think that rebrand feels very scary, sounds expensive, but there’s options to refresh or do campaigns, or things like that, where you’re not rebranding and it’s not always the answer. So I think that’s a big takeaway too. We have the mini brand session or mini brand workshops that are really small things just to elevate your brand if you’re feeling like it needs a refresh.

 

Alison Smith: [29:00]

I just want to add to that because Meghan and Sam just did one of those for one of our clients who went down the road of rebranding and decided it just wasn’t the right time for them, for whatever reason at that point. It can be a big endeavor. It was also during Q4, so we all know how that goes. They came in and took the elements that were already there and just refined it, and created the most beautiful deck that allowed the rest of every single person on the marketing team, the director of marketing, everyone on this brand is now able to have a cohesive look that’s much more elevated using the exact same color schemes, the exact same typography. Just knowing how it worked together helped everyone. Do y’all have anything to add to that? Because y’all actually did it, but it was perfect.

 

Sam Laubach: [29:59]

It was fun. It was like problem solving in such a way that it’s like you already have all the pieces together, but it’s like once you figure out what the problem is and you’re like, “Well, why don’t we try this? What if it’s like this instead? What if it’s this combination? Or what if we use this style of imagery or what if it’s in a unique shape?” It’s like using all the things that are there in a new way. It’s a very fun problem solving, like a puzzle. It’s very fun.

 

Meghan Martin: [30:24]

Sometimes the pieces aren’t wrong, it’s just how you’re putting them together that’s wrong, right?

 

Sam Laubach: [30:29]

Yep.

 

Meghan Martin: [30:29]

It’s like you have all the tools, everything’s already there, maybe you’re just not applying it right.

 

Karin Samelson: [30:36]

That’s exactly right.

 

Alison Smith: [30:39]

We just got our tagline for the podcast.

 

Karin Samelson: [30:44]

Sam and Meghan aren’t going to toot their own horns like crazy, but we will. That brand that we’re talking about was investing tens and dozens of thousands of dollars on a full rebrand, and then had to stop after paying a lot of that money with nothing to show, and then came to us, said, “Hey, we just need something.” In the interim, we were like, “This is a good solution, this refresh. It’s not going to take very long at all, but you’re going to be able to get so many actionable design elements and guidelines to be able to activate all of your marketing channels.” They could not be happier and it was just a fraction of the investment. So, like Sam said, it’s never too late. We’re going to fill in on all those details shortly. Thanks for being here y’all.

 

Meghan Martin: [31:39]

Thanks for having us.

 

Sam Laubach: [31:41]

We love doing these podcasts. It’s fun. Talk about branding all day, so we do.

 

Karin Samelson: [31:50]

Yeah, round three soon.

 

Thanks for listening to the UMAI Social Circle, y’all. We’re here to support you in your CPG journey, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any new podcast episodes. And while you’re at it, please leave us a review on your listening platform of choice. Shoot us a DM @umaimarketing on Instagram if you have any topics you want us to cover on new podcast episodes.

 

Alison Smith: [32:08]

Don’t forget to access our free masterclass where we’re showing you how to create a solid marketing strategy. You can access that at umaimarketing.com/masterclass and we’ll meet you back here for the next episode.